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  #1  
Old Jul 31, '13, 12:20 pm
Bergon Bergon is offline
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Default Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

I've started this thread to continue a discussion that was derailing this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Della View Post
I don't think we can say the original dispensation was not rightfully given. I have no doubt politic pressure was brought to bear, but I don't think we can simply say that the pope made his decision based on who Catherine's relatives were. The English were rather foreign in the way they thought about themselves, and the rest of Europe thought the same about them. They couldn't "play ball" like the more southern nations. It was as much a problem of national character differences as anything else, IMHO, that lent itself to the difficulties the pope had with dealing with Henry. It's the same today. Americans--USA Americans, that is, think very differently from S. Americans or Europeans or Asians, etc. Knowing how to deal with all these different cultural differences is truly hard. I don't envy any man on the papal throne who has to sort it all out.
It was a period when England, France and the kingdoms that were to become Spain were constantly making alliances and then becoming enemies. At the time it suited Aragon and England to make an alliance and both were in favour of Henry and Catherine's marriage. It required a dispensation. There is a strong case that this shouldn't have been given. I don't dispute Henry wanted rid of Catherine so he could marry someone else with whom he hoped to have a son. Aragon didn't want Catherine or their kingdom shamed. Their current ally was France. Despite the fact there was a strong case that Henry and Catherine should never have been married the pope was persuaded by Aragon and its ally France not to declare the marriage was valid.
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  #2  
Old Jul 31, '13, 1:10 pm
aemcpa aemcpa is offline
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Default Re: Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

He was a Catholic who fell into the sin of schism (among others) and was therefore excommunicated.
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  #3  
Old Jul 31, '13, 1:10 pm
Della Della is offline
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Default Re: Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

I understand what you are saying here. I just think we can't say definitively that Clement's main motive was to keep peace with Charles. He had to consider canon law, not just the wishes of emperors and kings. I'm not really up on all the ramifications, but no doubt Clement had people in the Curia advising him, as did Henry his people and Charles his people. Between them all, they couldn't settle the matter to Henry's liking so he, along with England, was the loser in the temporal and spiritual realm. The latter because Henry would not submit to the decision, good, bad or indifferent. One of the marks of a good Catholic is obedience. We cannot know what would have happened in history if Henry had swallowed his pride, but it might have prevented the split we see between Canterbury and Rome that destroyed lives and a thriving Catholic culture.
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  #4  
Old Jul 31, '13, 1:24 pm
Bergon Bergon is offline
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Default Re: Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

We shouldn't underestimate the role politics would have played. Henry and Catherine's marriage was not a Harry met Sally love affair. It was a politically motivated marriage. I'm going to have to do some checking but I'm 99% sure that Henry and Catherine should never have married.

There's no doubt that Henry wanted his marriage with Catherine dissolved because she hadn't provided him with a son, which he desperately desired. Once she'd passed child-bearing age he had to find away to validly leave Catherine and contract a new marriage.

I can understand you wanting to believe that the pope wouldn't be amenable to political pressure. Both then and at other times the Papacy has been coerced into making decisions by various secular powers.

It was the Holy Roman Emperor who brought the pressure to bear on Clement to persuade him to reach the decision he made. Again, I'll have to do some checking but if I remember correctly the cardinal sent to England by Rome to investigate the matter did find that Henry and Catherine's marriage was valid.
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  #5  
Old Jul 31, '13, 1:40 pm
GKC GKC is offline
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Default Re: Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

There's been a good deal of poor history in the previous thread, which spawned this one. I don't propose to go back and address the points, unless they come up again. But the issue of the dispensation Julius gave to permit Henry to marry Catherine I will expound a little on.

The fact that Catherine was the widow of Henry's brother established an impediment to the nuptials between Henry and Catherine, which Henry VII (for a couple of reasons) was arranging. This was what as generally known as an impediment of affinity (of which there were many kinds and degrees). Because of this impediment, Julius II had issued a dispensation (the other side of a decree of nullity, removing a canonical impediment) permitting Henry to marry Catherine in the first place. When Henry, for reasons multiple and complex, was seeking to be able to marry Anne (again for multiple reasons, history being complex like that), he had to submit his causa, , his case, to the appropriate ecclesiastical authorities. This was a commonplace at the time, and a detailed and evolving system was set up to deal with this sort of situation, particularly involving marriages of state. Henry’s case maintained that the prohibition on marriages between persons in his and Catherine's situation (the Levantical prohibition) was Scriptural, God's law, not positive Church law, and thus was beyond a Pope's power to dispense. There are impediments like that; no one can dispense to permit a son to marry his mother for example (canonically, an impediment of consanguinity in the first degree, direct). This meant that he was saying that Julius had made an error and the dispensation exceeded his authority (was ultra vires). In addition, Church rulings on whether the Levitical prohibition was natural or Divine law had varied over the years, Hence his case was not strong, on that account. But it was as strong was was customary in such dynastic cases, and likely was even stronger than he had claimed. Without going into technical details, Wolsey had suggested that an undispensed diriment impediment of the justice of public honesty lurked in Pope Julius' dispensation for Henry to marry Catherine. This would avoid some of the political weaknesses in claiming that Julius' original dispensation was faulty, in the specific manner Henry's causa asserted. Henry ignored him; his causa was as good as was ordinarily found at his level of society and he fully expected to get his decree. But an Emperor trumps a King. And there was no way that, in the circumstances, Henry was going to get that decree of nullity. And he really had tried to play the game by the rules, fully expecting to get his decree. His causa was as strong as was customary; certainly stronger than that of his sister Margaret, who sought one shortly before Henry submitted his papers. Henry thought her case was so weak that he scolded her. She got the decree.

As I've hinted, there are a myriad of details involved in this story, and it's been quite a while since I've rehearsed them here. Which is fine with me. But if there are other points I might address, I might do so. I consider Hank a fascinating train wreck.

GKC

Last edited by GKC; Jul 31, '13 at 1:56 pm.
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  #6  
Old Jul 31, '13, 2:07 pm
Della Della is offline
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Default Re: Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergon View Post
We shouldn't underestimate the role politics would have played. Henry and Catherine's marriage was not a Harry met Sally love affair. It was a politically motivated marriage. I'm going to have to do some checking but I'm 99% sure that Henry and Catherine should never have married.

There's no doubt that Henry wanted his marriage with Catherine dissolved because she hadn't provided him with a son, which he desperately desired. Once she'd passed child-bearing age he had to find away to validly leave Catherine and contract a new marriage.

I can understand you wanting to believe that the pope wouldn't be amenable to political pressure. Both then and at other times the Papacy has been coerced into making decisions by various secular powers.

It was the Holy Roman Emperor who brought the pressure to bear on Clement to persuade him to reach the decision he made. Again, I'll have to do some checking but if I remember correctly the cardinal sent to England by Rome to investigate the matter did find that Henry and Catherine's marriage was valid.
I'm not disputing facts here, and I have no dog in the hunt. It matters little to me why Henry wasn't given his annulment. I really don't care about that--such matters I leave to those whose authority it is to decide them. What I'm saying is that if Henry had not been so stubborn and put his case in such a way as to be sure to make him sound condescending--as if he knew Scripture better than a pope, then things might have been very different. Even so, I would have thought he could have reapplied under the reasons Woolsey wanted to give. Perhaps he would have gotten his annulment. Whatever. He didn't get it, he rebelled and thereby hangs a tail, as they say.
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  #7  
Old Jul 31, '13, 2:12 pm
GKC GKC is offline
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Default Re: Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Della View Post
I'm not disputing facts here, and I have no dog in the hunt. It matters little to me why Henry wasn't given his annulment. I really don't care about that--such matters I leave to those whose authority it is to decide them. What I'm saying is that if Henry had not been so stubborn and put his case in such a way as to be sure to make him sound condescending--as if he knew Scripture better than a pope, then things might have been very different. Even so, I would have thought he could have reapplied under the reasons Woolsey wanted to give. Perhaps he would have gotten his annulment. Whatever. He didn't get it, he rebelled and thereby hangs a thread, as they say.
The issue as Henry presented it in hiscausa had been ruled on various ways, over the years. A case in 1410 was particularly interesting. It was arguable that it was ultra vires. But, in the end, that was beside the point.

GKC
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  #8  
Old Jul 31, '13, 2:16 pm
Della Della is offline
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Default Re: Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC View Post
The issue as Henry presented it in hiscausa had been ruled on various ways, over the years. A case in 1410 was particularly interesting. It was arguable that it was ultra vires. But, in the end, that was beside the point.

GKC
Yes. The title of the thread is "Was HVIII a Catholic or Protestant." Well, I think the answer is he started out a Catholic but became a Protestant, even though he himself would have denied the definition.

An interesting side note to all this is the fact that before Henry had his fateful accident that nearly cost him his life he was quite agreeable and kindly. Afterwards, he became mean and capricious. If he hadn't had that injury perhaps history would have been very different. We can only guess, but I truly believe it changed him into the monstrous tyrant of history.
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  #9  
Old Jul 31, '13, 2:27 pm
GKC GKC is offline
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Default Re: Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Della View Post
Yes. The title of the thread is "Was HVIII a Catholic or Protestant." Well, I think the answer is he started out a Catholic but became a Protestant, even though he himself would have denied the definition.

An interesting side note to all this is the fact that before Henry had his fateful accident that nearly cost him his life he was quite agreeable and kindly. Afterwards, he became mean and capricious. If he hadn't had that injury perhaps history would have been very different. We can only guess, but I truly believe it changed him into the monstrous tyrant of history.
Mostly agree, as to the last. He was always self-centered, though not necessarily in disagreeable ways. Fascinating train wreck.

GKC
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  #10  
Old Jul 31, '13, 2:45 pm
Judas Thaddeus's Avatar
Judas Thaddeus Judas Thaddeus is offline
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Default Re: Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergon View Post
I've started this thread to continue a discussion that was derailing this thread.

It was a period when England, France and the kingdoms that were to become Spain were constantly making alliances and then becoming enemies. At the time it suited Aragon and England to make an alliance and both were in favour of Henry and Catherine's marriage. It required a dispensation. There is a strong case that this shouldn't have been given. I don't dispute Henry wanted rid of Catherine so he could marry someone else with whom he hoped to have a son. Aragon didn't want Catherine or their kingdom shamed. Their current ally was France. Despite the fact there was a strong case that Henry and Catherine should never have been married the pope was persuaded by Aragon and its ally France not to declare the marriage was valid.
I would go with what I heard on the Tudors series, that Henry had always been
Catholic, but that he would not have anyone tell him what to do except when it
came to what God appeared to be saying. I know the Tudors series was in
part a kinda fictional thing, but it appeared to present a rather valid thought.
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  #11  
Old Jul 31, '13, 2:50 pm
GKC GKC is offline
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Default Re: Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Thaddeus View Post
I would go with what I heard on the Tudors series, that Henry had always been
Catholic, but that he would not have anyone tell him what to do except when it
came to what God appeared to be saying. I know the Tudors series was in
part a kinda fictional thing, but it appeared to present a rather valid thought.
I have no use for the Tudor soap opera, but I agree.

GKC
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  #12  
Old Jul 31, '13, 3:04 pm
DaveBj DaveBj is offline
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Default Re: Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

[opinion]

1. Henry was a Catholic, but after his decree of nullity was refused, he wanted to become Pope, at least in England.

2. He was also a dirty old man. And a train-wreck, as others have pointed out.

3. I suspect that the real reason that Hank and Cathy couldn't have sons wasn't Cathy's fault at all; I would lay the reason to his male swimmers' being, shall we say, defective. The one surviving son that he did have (Edward VI) wasn't exactly the picture of English virility, not even making it to his 16th birthday.

[/opinion]
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  #13  
Old Jul 31, '13, 3:10 pm
GKC GKC is offline
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Default Re: Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

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Originally Posted by DaveBj View Post
[opinion]

1. Henry was a Catholic, but after his decree of nullity was refused, he wanted to become Pope, at least in England.

2. He was also a dirty old man. And a train-wreck, as others have pointed out.

3. I suspect that the real reason that Hank and Cathy couldn't have sons wasn't Cathy's fault at all; I would lay the reason to his male swimmers' being, shall we say, defective. The one surviving son that he did have (Edward VI) wasn't exactly the picture of English virility, not even making it to his 16th birthday.

[/opinion]
Neither did his illegitimate son, Henry Fitzroy.

The Tudor genes, in the male line, were a little weak. Else Hank would not have been put in the position of marrying Catherine.

GKC
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  #14  
Old Jul 31, '13, 11:47 pm
Bergon Bergon is offline
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Default Re: Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBj View Post
1. Henry was a Catholic, but after his decree of nullity was refused, he wanted to become Pope, at least in England.
I wouldn't say he set himself up as the Pope. I think if it had been a feasible option he'd have done what he would to retaliate against France, he'd have probably gone to war with the Pope. However, he had to settle for denying the Pope had any authority in his kingdom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBj View Post
2. He was also a dirty old man. And a train-wreck, as others have pointed out.
Unfortunately, the latter era of his reign is often emphasised rather than the earlier part. He was, as you put it, a dirty old man. In his time that didn't make him unique among monarchs, peers or courtiers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBj View Post
3. I suspect that the real reason that Hank and Cathy couldn't have sons wasn't Cathy's fault at all; I would lay the reason to his male swimmers' being, shall we say, defective. The one surviving son that he did have (Edward VI) wasn't exactly the picture of English virility, not even making it to his 16th birthday.
Biological fact: it wasn't Catherine's fault. The man determines the sex of the baby. I'm not so sure his spermatozoa were too unhealthy at the start. We need to rememmber that they didn't have the level of health care we have. Disease and early death were common in those days; even if you were rich.
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  #15  
Old Aug 1, '13, 6:28 am
rinnie rinnie is offline
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Default Re: Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Della View Post
Yes. The title of the thread is "Was HVIII a Catholic or Protestant." Well, I think the answer is he started out a Catholic but became a Protestant, even though he himself would have denied the definition.

An interesting side note to all this is the fact that before Henry had his fateful accident that nearly cost him his life he was quite agreeable and kindly. Afterwards, he became mean and capricious. If he hadn't had that injury perhaps history would have been very different. We can only guess, but I truly believe it changed him into the monstrous tyrant of history.
I think the correct answer would be a fallen Catholic. I was told once a Catholic always a Catholic.

When people are baptised Catholic they are always considered Catholic.
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