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  #1  
Old Oct 22, '05, 9:52 am
DaMaMaXiMuS DaMaMaXiMuS is offline
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Default ***Has Anyone Ever Heard of This?***

Greetings and Peace unto you all,

Here in New York City there is a religious group/cult called the Black Hebrew Israelites. That teaches that the image we have today of Jesus Christ as a white man was actually modeled after Cesar Borgias son of Pope Alexander VI, also known as Rodrigo Borgias.

The story goes that during the period of the renaissance Pope Alexander VI commissioned artist such Michael Angelo, Leonardo Da Vinci, etc., to have his son Cesar be the model for the images of Christ. And that many pre-existing works accurately depicting Christ as having a dark or darker skin were done over or white washed. I believe it was said this was commissioned by the Alexander VI after the death of his son Cesar.

They had a book called, ďThe BorgiasĒ, by Alexander Dumas and on the cover of the book it had a picture of a painting of Cesar Borgias. The Black Hebrew Israelite group then had a picture of Jesus Christ that they compared side by side. Iíll admit there were similarities or resemblances. Then they have art books of Christianity that show art work prior to the period of the renaissance that show artist renditions of Christ as being darker in complexion.

They even had a book, I think it was called, ďThe IconsĒ, that had a picture of Mary and the baby Jesus in her arms that very dark skinned, pretty much what most would term, black. Finally, they hit me with some scriptures from the bible, in particular, Rev. 1:14-15, Daniels 7:9, Daniels 10:5-6 to prove that Christ is described as a dark skinned man. This in turn for them proves their other claims that the biblical Jews were not white people but black. Then they showed me a scripture in Wisdom of Solomon 14:12-21, and said that this scripture foretells of the alleged deception perpetrated on the depiction of Christ. And that this is the image being spoken about in Rev. 13:14 and parts in Rev. that people are deceived into accepting.

They use a book called, ďThe thirteenth TribeĒ, by Arthur Koestler, that claims 90% of the Eastern Jews are converts dating back to the 12th century who came from the Khazar Empire in Kazaria, an area between the Black and Caspian Seas. Supposedly, during the struggles between the Christian Empire and Muslim Empire, both of these groups attempted to recruit the Khazars to help fight the other. Supposedly, the Khazars saw that both Christianity and Islam had their beginnings is the religion of the Jews and chose that. This is how they present their evidence and prove to their claims.

So basically they claim that when people are praying to images or statutes of Christ, which incidentally they believe is idolatry, itís from artist interpretation going back to Cesar Borgias. And that the true image of Christ

From what Iíve read allegedly Alexander the VI was one of the few wicked Popes, supposedly there are all types of charges ranging from murder to incest, also much political corruption. Supposedly, he even had family members placed in the College of Cardinals. Now I donít know how true any of this is, because most of what Iíve read is from off the internet. But I donít know what the official word is from the Vatican.

Cont.
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  #2  
Old Oct 22, '05, 9:55 am
DaMaMaXiMuS DaMaMaXiMuS is offline
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Default Re: ***Has Anyone Ever Heard of This?***

Cont. from previous post.

Now I myself asked one time on this forum about the question of the depiction of Christ most people believe today. And I remember in discussions on the thread people explained that for the most part the images we see of Christ are artist interpretations or renditions. Also that the Church, RCC, doesnít say that Christ actually look like this, or look like that, etc. I think I remember that someone said that there are RCC churches where the images they have of Christ would be depicted more like the ethnic community that worships there. And also there were people who basically said they could believe Christ was dark skinned or darker than what is portrayed, but that ultimately it is his teachings and example that matters most, which I myself ultimately agree with.


But I guess Iím even bringing this up is for the sake of wanting to know if there is any truth to these claims by this group, and what to make of the supposed body of evidence shown to me.


My question is has anyone heard of these claims of Cesar Borgias and that he was used to represent a new image of Christ not used prior?


If Alexander the VI was as evil as some say, could he have actually pulled something like this off? Or could it have been impossible even with the alleged corruption?


Has anyone come across these books used by this group?


Regarding those scriptures used by this group what is the Churchís teaching on them? The one in Wisdom of Solomon really threw me for a loop because as the Israelite group read it they pointed out how it mentions artificers, which they say would be people like Leonardo Da Vinci, Michael Angelo. Then they pointed out how it talked about the image being taken to those who live far, which they linked to how people were being forced to accept Christianity, in particular they referred to the conquistador who arrived in the New World and were forcing the Indians into Christianity.


And incidentally, the book that had the picture of Mary with baby Jesus in her arms, Mary had like 3 scratches or scares of one side of her face, I think it was the right side. Anyone know what thatís about? I found that strange.


Has anyone heard of the Khazars?


Iíve been standing outside listening to this group for a couple of months now and Iíve been just putting together their doctrine. They donít move me to want to leave my path of coming into the Catholic Faith, but Iíll admit they do raise questions that make me wonder if there is any truth to what they speak of.


Hope you all can help with answers and thoughts.



God Bless You All,



Nelson
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  #3  
Old Oct 22, '05, 10:01 am
Montie Claunch Montie Claunch is offline
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Default Re: ***Has Anyone Ever Heard of This?***

O.K. this might not be 100% correct but, me just shooting from the hip/ Wasn't Mr. Alexander Dumas a fiction writer?
I thought that there were some White Jesus pictures that preceeded that time frame. And "Black Hebrew Isrialites"? Sounds a little suspect to me. Is this Black as in the ethnic group or like Dark? And the 13th Tribe?
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  #4  
Old Oct 22, '05, 10:34 am
edward_george edward_george is offline
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Default Re: ***Has Anyone Ever Heard of This?***

Best answer to this is quite simple. Byzantine Icons have always shown Jesus to be fair skinned. Byzantine Icons predate the Renaissance. Case closed.


-ACEGC
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Lumen in Caelo
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  #5  
Old Oct 22, '05, 10:38 am
johnshelby johnshelby is offline
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Default Re: ***Has Anyone Ever Heard of This?***

"Our Lady of New York"..

http://sunday.niedziela.pl/artykul.p...t&id_art=00023

here is a link.. but, i can't guarantee this, like you say, it's online
content.. lol

:-)
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  #6  
Old Oct 22, '05, 11:06 am
selvaraj selvaraj is offline
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Default Re: ***Has Anyone Ever Heard of This?***

I never heard anything about your post. But Jesus Christ`s picture appeared in Euchorist. Please visit.

The Holy Face of Jesus Christ as appeared on the Holy Eucharist

On 5-5-2001



Testimony of the parish priest
Fr. Johnson Karoor<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">
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  #7  
Old Oct 22, '05, 11:09 am
selvaraj selvaraj is offline
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Default Re: ***Has Anyone Ever Heard of This?***

Continue...
More details in the link http://www.malankara.net/eucharist/eucharist.htm

In Christ,
selvaraj
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  #8  
Old Oct 22, '05, 12:04 pm
Gottle of Geer Gottle of Geer is offline
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Cool Re: ***Has Anyone Ever Heard of This?***

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaMaMaXiMuS
Greetings and Peace unto you all,

Here in New York City there is a religious group/cult called the Black Hebrew Israelites. That teaches that the image we have today of Jesus Christ as a white man was actually modeled after Cesar Borgias son of Pope Alexander VI, also known as Rodrigo Borgias.

The story goes that during the period of the renaissance Pope Alexander VI commissioned artist such Michael Angelo, Leonardo Da Vinci, etc., to have his son Cesar be the model for the images of Christ. And that many pre-existing works accurately depicting Christ as having a dark or darker skin were done over or white washed. I believe it was said this was commissioned by the Alexander VI after the death of his son Cesar.
## Since the Pope died in 1503, and Cesare Borgia in 1507, that was very prophetic of the Pope ##
Quote:
They had a book called, ďThe BorgiasĒ, by Alexander Dumas
## It's a novel - not a biography ##
Quote:
and on the cover of the book it had a picture of a painting of Cesar Borgias. The Black Hebrew Israelite group then had a picture of Jesus Christ that they compared side by side. Iíll admit there were similarities or resemblances. Then they have art books of Christianity that show art work prior to the period of the renaissance that show artist renditions of Christ as being darker in complexion.
Quote:

They even had a book, I think it was called, ďThe IconsĒ, that had a picture of Mary and the baby Jesus in her arms that very dark skinned, pretty much what most would term, black. Finally, they hit me with some scriptures from the bible, in particular, Rev. 1:14-15, Daniels 7:9, Daniels 10:5-6 to prove that Christ is described as a dark skinned man.
## Since Christ is not referred to in those passages, such a claim is both ignorant, and an abuse of the texts ##
Quote:
This in turn for them proves their other claims that the biblical Jews were not white people but black. Then they showed me a scripture in Wisdom of Solomon 14:12-21, and said that this scripture foretells of the alleged deception perpetrated on the depiction of Christ. And that this is the image being spoken about in Rev. 13:14 and parts in Rev. that people are deceived into accepting.
Quote:

They use a book called, ďThe thirteenth TribeĒ, by Arthur Koestler, that claims 90% of the Eastern Jews are converts dating back to the 12th century who came from the Khazar Empire in Kazaria, an area between the Black and Caspian Seas. Supposedly, during the struggles between the Christian Empire and Muslim Empire, both of these groups attempted to recruit the Khazars to help fight the other. Supposedly, the Khazars saw that both Christianity and Islam had their beginnings is the religion of the Jews and chose that. This is how they present their evidence and prove to their claims.

So basically they claim that when people are praying to images or statues of Christ,
## We do nothing of the kind - we pray to Him Whom they represent ##
Quote:
which incidentally they believe is idolatry, itís from artist interpretation going back to Cesar Borgias. And that the true image of Christ
## When people intend to pray to Christ, they do not intend to pray to Cesare Borgia - or anyone else. Did those who voted for Kerry intend to vote for Bush ? If not - why should our intentions in our praying be directed to those we are not intending to pray to ?

For some reason, whenever religion is discussed, common sense (I wish it were common - it is all too rare) vanishes like a vapour. ##
Quote:
From what Iíve read allegedly Alexander the VI was one of the few wicked Popes, supposedly there are all types of charges ranging from murder to incest, also much political corruption. Supposedly, he even had family members placed in the College of Cardinals. Now I donít know how true any of this is, because most of what Iíve read is from off the internet. But I donít know what the official word is from the Vatican.

Cont.
## "Official word" about what ? ##
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  #9  
Old Oct 22, '05, 12:11 pm
DaMaMaXiMuS DaMaMaXiMuS is offline
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Default Re: ***Has Anyone Ever Heard of This?***

When they say Black Hebrew Israelites, they mean ethnic. Their saying the biblical Israelites were black or dark skinned peopled, allegedly.

I remember the group say that the author of, "The Thirteenth Tribe", was saying 13th because that is what the converts of the Khazars would be, a 13th tribe of the which the author says there is no such thing in the bible.
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  #10  
Old Oct 22, '05, 12:25 pm
DaMaMaXiMuS DaMaMaXiMuS is offline
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Default Re: ***Has Anyone Ever Heard of This?***

Gottle of Geer,

I meant official word from the Vatican as to Alexander the VI and whether he was a wicked Pope, not whether he had his son Cesar pose as Christ in art work. I apologies for not making that question clearer.

Also on thier claim about the images of Christ really being Cesar Borgias I think they meant people ignorantly are believing that's what Christ looked like.

Anyway aside from this groups claims, I thought Rev. 1:14-15 that was Christ coming to John the Revelator? I mean I believe the description is symblic, but still are speaking of Christ. No?
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  #11  
Old Oct 22, '05, 12:41 pm
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Church Militant Church Militant is offline
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Arrow Re: ***Has Anyone Ever Heard of This?***

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaMaMaXiMuS
When they say Black Hebrew Israelites, they mean ethnic. Their saying the biblical Israelites were black or dark skinned peopled, allegedly.

I remember the group say that the author of, "The Thirteenth Tribe", was saying 13th because that is what the converts of the Khazars would be, a 13th tribe of the which the author says there is no such thing in the bible.
In working in my prison correspondence ministry I have encountered the teachings of these people. They are making good headway among blacks in the system here in Florida, and they are rabidly anti-Catholic. Some of their stuff has been sent to me by my guys and it's so vitriolic and factually inaccurate as to be laughable if they weren't deadly serious.

They seem to base their whole religion around the misinterpretation of one single verse from Song of Solomon chapter 1: 5: I am very dark, but comely, O daughters of Jerusalem, like the tents of Kedar, like the curtains of Solomon.
6: Do not gaze at me because I am swarthy, because the sun has scorched me. My mother's sons were angry with me, they made me keeper of the vineyards; but, my own vineyard I have not kept!

As you can see the context of the very next verse makes it very plain that the lady in question was deeply tanned by the sun. And a Hebrew word study will support that because the word used means exactly what this passage says.

The Jews I know take issue with them as ridiculous since they recruit exclusively among blacks and that none of them were born Jewish...the way that one becomes a Jew.

They are end timesy types and their writings attack the Catholic Church in ways that would do Ellen G. White & Jack Chick proud.
Pax tecum,
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Dominus meus et Deus meus
Michael


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  #12  
Old Oct 22, '05, 4:39 pm
DaMaMaXiMuS DaMaMaXiMuS is offline
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Default Re: ***Has Anyone Ever Heard of This?***

Thanks for you input Church Militant,

Yeah from what I've come to learn the Black Hebrew Israelites are very strong in the prisons among blacks and even hispanics.
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  #13  
Old Nov 2, '05, 10:25 am
DoubleEdged DoubleEdged is offline
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Default Re: ***Has Anyone Ever Heard of This?***

DaMaMaXiMuS, THE INFORMATION YOU SHARED IN THIS FORUM IS VERY CORRECT AND VERY TRUE. THE HISTORY THE ISRAELITES HAVE GIVEN YOU IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT AND A WELL KNOWN 'FACT' AMONG THE ELITES OF THIS SOCIETY AND AMONG THOSE WHO ARE 'IN THE KNOW'.

THE TERM 'BLACK HEBREW ISRAELITES' IS NOT MEANT AS SOME TYPE OF COMMERCIAL TERM.

THE REASON THEY CALL THEMSELVES SUCH IS BECAUSE THE IMAGE OF THE ISRAELITES PORTRAYED TODAY IS OF THE PERPETRATORS WHO ARE LIVING IN THE LAND IN MODERN TIMES. IN ORDER TO MAKE A DISTINCTIONS, THE TRUE ISREALITES ADD THE WORD "BLACK" TO THE NAME. ALTHOUGH THERE IS NO NATION IN THE WORLD CALLED "BLACK". THE BIBLICAL ISRAELITES WERE DARK SKINNED.

BUT SINCE IN MODERN TIMES THEY'VE BEEN LABELLED AS 'BLACK', THAT IS THE WORD USED TO THE SET THE TRUE HEBREW ISRALEITES, FROM THE FALSE ONES.
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  #14  
Old Nov 2, '05, 6:05 pm
Gottle of Geer Gottle of Geer is offline
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Smile Re: ***Has Anyone Ever Heard of This?***

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaMaMaXiMuS
Gottle of Geer,

I meant official word from the Vatican as to Alexander the VI and whether he was a wicked Pope, not whether he had his son Cesar pose as Christ in art work. I apologies for not making that question clearer.

Also on thier claim about the images of Christ really being Cesar Borgias I think they meant people ignorantly are believing that's what Christ looked like.

Anyway aside from this groups claims, I thought Rev. 1:14-15 that was Christ coming to John the Revelator? I mean I believe the description is symblic, but still are speaking of Christ. No?
## It's an encounter between the Glorified Christ and John, and it applies to Christ the description of the "Ancient of Days" in Daniel 7. It uses the language of symbolism as you point out; to make a theological point - that Jesus is as fully (therefore, uniquely) God as is God in Daniel: 10-13. There is a lot of theology in that one piece of text in Revelation 1. The symbolism in those Biblical passages both shows Him as Priest, and is in part pre-Israelite:

She rolled back the tent of El
and came to the pavilion of the King, father of Shanimu.

[or: "of years". Compare: "ancient of days"]

"...And the Great Lady-who-tramples-Yam replied:

"You are great, O El!
The greyness of your beard does indeed make you wise;
the compassion which comes from your breast does indeed instruct you!

And now the season of his rains may Baal indeed appoint,
the season of his barque of snow*.

And he will give forth his voice from the clouds,
his song to the earth in lightning-flashes...."
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  #15  
Old Nov 2, '05, 7:37 pm
ahimsaman72 ahimsaman72 is offline
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Default Re: ***Has Anyone Ever Heard of This?***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montie Claunch
O.K. this might not be 100% correct but, me just shooting from the hip/ Wasn't Mr. Alexander Dumas a fiction writer?
I thought that there were some White Jesus pictures that preceeded that time frame. And "Black Hebrew Isrialites"? Sounds a little suspect to me. Is this Black as in the ethnic group or like Dark? And the 13th Tribe?
Alexander Dumas was indeed a fiction writer who wrote works like, "The Three Musketeers". I remember distinctly reading his book in high school.
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