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  #1  
Old Aug 23, '13, 6:50 am
markomalley markomalley is offline
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Default Air Force sergeant says he was punished for views on marriage

From EWTN News:
An Air Force senior master sergeant has filed a formal complaint after allegedly being relieved of his duties for admitting that he opposes a redefinition of marriage.

“We are hoping that the Air Force in particular, and all the military services, will honor the law that was passed by Congress last year that provides a right of conscience protection for our military personnel,” said Ron Cruise of the Chaplain Alliance for Religious Liberty.

He told EWTN News on Aug. 21 that “those serving to protect religious liberties” should have their own religious liberties secured as well.
<sarcasm follows>Well, that's what he gets for not accepting the accepted State religion. Burn incense to the current gods or die.</sarcasm off>
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  #2  
Old Aug 23, '13, 7:01 am
gam197 gam197 is offline
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Default Re: Air Force sergeant says he was punished for views on marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by markomalley View Post
From EWTN News:
An Air Force senior master sergeant has filed a formal complaint after allegedly being relieved of his duties for admitting that he opposes a redefinition of marriage.

“We are hoping that the Air Force in particular, and all the military services, will honor the law that was passed by Congress last year that provides a right of conscience protection for our military personnel,” said Ron Cruise of the Chaplain Alliance for Religious Liberty.

He told EWTN News on Aug. 21 that “those serving to protect religious liberties” should have their own religious liberties secured as well.
<sarcasm follows>Well, that's what he gets for not accepting the accepted State religion. Burn incense to the current gods or die.</sarcasm off>
"Right of conscience protection", I can't believe that will take place in the current state of America.

Brought this case up in another thread.

Quote:
http://joemiller.us/2013/07/airman-p...-point-chapel/

Instead of responding to the private email, the Commandant of Cadets notified the Utah Air National Guard – leading to an accusation that he had brought disgrace and discredit upon the Air National Guard and his conduct was inconsistent with the United States Air Force.

Last edited by gam197; Aug 23, '13 at 7:13 am.
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  #3  
Old Aug 23, '13, 9:16 am
gam197 gam197 is offline
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Default Re: Air Force sergeant says he was punished for views on marriage

His commanding officer was openly gay - a lesbian, her name is Major Elisa Valenzuela.



Interesting in the second case I posted it was also a female officer - (Chaplain Barbara Sherer).

The officer who spoke at Diversity day at the Air Force was Brig. Gen. Tammy Smith who is openly gay. Tammy Smith and Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman) presided at the Washington D.C. parade.

Last edited by gam197; Aug 23, '13 at 9:30 am.
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  #4  
Old Aug 23, '13, 11:49 am
SeannyM SeannyM is offline
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Default Re: Air Force sergeant says he was punished for views on marriage

He's not being punished for his views, he's being punished for disobeying a direct order. He is the supervisor for an instructor who was openly opposing homosexuality on religious grounds to trainees, which is against regulations. You aren't allowed to oppose any policy on religious grounds when you are an instructor. You aren't allowed to voice opposition to any policy on ANY grounds to students when you are instructing them.

He was instructed by his commanding officer to punish the instructor, and he refused. If you refuse to obey a lawful order, you are in violation of the UCMJ.

AND... He wasn't relieved of his duties... he was transferred to a position comensurate with his rank.. and he was due for a transfer, so he expected to be moved anyway. He's really worried about a medal that he was put in for, and how his behavior will affect the award board's decision.
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  #5  
Old Aug 23, '13, 12:51 pm
styrgwillidar styrgwillidar is offline
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Default Re: Air Force sergeant says he was punished for views on marriage

"And this is why I have no guilt for my white separatist outlook on life. Sorry, but I'd rather hang out with God loving, God fearing conservative anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage whites. Sue me."

You do realize that the majority of the black community opposes gay marriage, right? One of the key voter segments in passing prop 8 in California. ( of course our own elected officials were derelict in performing the obligations of their office in defending it).

Been around many God-loving, God fearing blacks who oppose abortion as well. Perhaps you just need to widen your circle of acquaintances by getting involved in some of the activist groups on the issues.
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  #6  
Old Aug 23, '13, 1:01 pm
styrgwillidar styrgwillidar is offline
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Default Re: Air Force sergeant says he was punished for views on marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeannyM View Post
He's not being punished for his views, he's being punished for disobeying a direct order. He is the supervisor for an instructor who was openly opposing homosexuality on religious grounds to trainees, which is against regulations. You aren't allowed to oppose any policy on religious grounds when you are an instructor. You aren't allowed to voice opposition to any policy on ANY grounds to students when you are instructing them.

He was instructed by his commanding officer to punish the instructor, and he refused. If you refuse to obey a lawful order, you are in violation of the UCMJ.

AND... He wasn't relieved of his duties... he was transferred to a position comensurate with his rank.. and he was due for a transfer, so he expected to be moved anyway. He's really worried about a medal that he was put in for, and how his behavior will affect the award board's decision.
Could you please provide a link to an article supporting your interpretation of events? I do not see the level of detail you mention in the article.

The OP's article only indicates a discussion about the other instructor, I don't see where it indicates a supervisory relationship. I don't see where it refers to an order he disobeyed, according to the article he expressed his beliefs on the issue when pressed by his superior. I do not see where he was directed to punish the instructor, only that he eventually was but not by whom.

" Monk, who identifies himself as an evangelical Christian, claims that the issue arose during a discussion about a separate staff sergeant who expressed to trainees his religious-based opposition to homosexual relationships. Air Force policy bars the use of positions of authority to promote religious beliefs among subordinates.

While discussing the situation, Monk said, his commanding officer pressed him on his own religious beliefs until he admitted that he shares traditional views on marriage. He alleges that the officer – who has not been identified to the public – is an open lesbian.

Monk claims he was immediately relieved of his duties as first sergeant of the training squadron in the division, though he was not removed from the military itself. Monk was due for reassignment, and has since been placed with the 59th Medical Wing at Lackland AFB.

“I was relieved of my position because I do not agree with my commander’s position on gay marriage,” he said to the Military Times on Aug. 16.

Monk also told the Military Times that the staff sergeant who was the subject of the dispute received an official notice of infraction and a letter of counseling.
..."
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  #7  
Old Aug 23, '13, 2:12 pm
SeannyM SeannyM is offline
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Default Re: Air Force sergeant says he was punished for views on marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by styrgwillidar View Post
Could you please provide a link to an article supporting your interpretation of events? I do not see the level of detail you mention in the article.

The OP's article only indicates a discussion about the other instructor, I don't see where it indicates a supervisory relationship. I don't see where it refers to an order he disobeyed, according to the article he expressed his beliefs on the issue when pressed by his superior. I do not see where he was directed to punish the instructor, only that he eventually was but not by whom.

" Monk, who identifies himself as an evangelical Christian, claims that the issue arose during a discussion about a separate staff sergeant who expressed to trainees his religious-based opposition to homosexual relationships. Air Force policy bars the use of positions of authority to promote religious beliefs among subordinates.

While discussing the situation, Monk said, his commanding officer pressed him on his own religious beliefs until he admitted that he shares traditional views on marriage. He alleges that the officer – who has not been identified to the public – is an open lesbian.

Monk claims he was immediately relieved of his duties as first sergeant of the training squadron in the division, though he was not removed from the military itself. Monk was due for reassignment, and has since been placed with the 59th Medical Wing at Lackland AFB.

“I was relieved of my position because I do not agree with my commander’s position on gay marriage,” he said to the Military Times on Aug. 16.

Monk also told the Military Times that the staff sergeant who was the subject of the dispute received an official notice of infraction and a letter of counseling.
..."
Sure... the military times is where I read it... it says in the article that he was the training squadron first sergeant... which is the senior enlisted, who would be placed in a supervisory role over all the instructors by virtue of his position.
http://www.militarytimes.com/apps/pb...=2013308160021
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  #8  
Old Aug 23, '13, 2:37 pm
oldcatholicguy oldcatholicguy is offline
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Default Re: Air Force sergeant says he was punished for views on marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeannyM View Post
Sure... the military times is where I read it... it says in the article that he was the training squadron first sergeant... which is the senior enlisted, who would be placed in a supervisory role over all the instructors by virtue of his position.
http://www.militarytimes.com/apps/pb...=2013308160021
Based on the article you linked and my experience as a military officer and as an nco I'd say that his commanding officer should have been either reprimanded or relieved. Not because she is a lesbian or because she support homosexual marriage, but because she basically forced her subordinate into stating his personal opinion and punished him for it. All she needed was a)the ability to read and understand the Air Force's guidelines and regs concerning the incident b)the recommendations of her Squadron First Sergeant (E-9? I don't know Air Force enlisted ranks) based on his professional, not personal opinion, of the soldier in question and what he (the Squadron First Sergeant) thought would be the most effective course of action to correct the soldier and resolve the incident, and c)the ability to separate her own personal views from her professional duties and responsibilities.
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  #9  
Old Aug 24, '13, 12:19 pm
gam197 gam197 is offline
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Default Re: Air Force sergeant says he was punished for views on marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcatholicguy View Post
Based on the article you linked and my experience as a military officer and as an nco I'd say that his commanding officer should have been either reprimanded or relieved. Not because she is a lesbian or because she support homosexual marriage, but because she basically forced her subordinate into stating his personal opinion and punished him for it. All she needed was a)the ability to read and understand the Air Force's guidelines and regs concerning the incident b)the recommendations of her Squadron First Sergeant (E-9? I don't know Air Force enlisted ranks) based on his professional, not personal opinion, of the soldier in question and what he (the Squadron First Sergeant) thought would be the most effective course of action to correct the soldier and resolve the incident, and c)the ability to separate her own personal views from her professional duties and responsibilities.


Is the percentage of lesbian commanding officers higher in the military - just wondering.

Looking at the "Longitutidal Study of Adolescense Health" and lesbian behavior in the civilian population it is 4.2 for women but 10.7 for women in the military.
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  #10  
Old Aug 24, '13, 1:29 pm
SeannyM SeannyM is offline
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Default Re: Air Force sergeant says he was punished for views on marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcatholicguy View Post
Based on the article you linked and my experience as a military officer and as an nco I'd say that his commanding officer should have been either reprimanded or relieved. Not because she is a lesbian or because she support homosexual marriage, but because she basically forced her subordinate into stating his personal opinion and punished him for it. All she needed was a)the ability to read and understand the Air Force's guidelines and regs concerning the incident b)the recommendations of her Squadron First Sergeant (E-9? I don't know Air Force enlisted ranks) based on his professional, not personal opinion, of the soldier in question and what he (the Squadron First Sergeant) thought would be the most effective course of action to correct the soldier and resolve the incident, and c)the ability to separate her own personal views from her professional duties and responsibilities.
She reprimanded him for disobeying her order to reprimand the instructor. Whether you agree with her course of action to punish the instructor, she is still within her rights as the commanding officer to do so. When my CO orders me to punish someone, even when I think it's too harsh, you better believe I obey him. If I were to say "no sir, I won't because I agree with what the Sailor did," I would be swiftly punished and I would deserve it. We MUST obey lawful orders, or else the military will cease to be effective.
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  #11  
Old Aug 24, '13, 3:28 pm
markomalley markomalley is offline
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Default Re: Air Force sergeant says he was punished for views on marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeannyM View Post
Sure... the military times is where I read it... it says in the article that he was the training squadron first sergeant... which is the senior enlisted, who would be placed in a supervisory role over all the instructors by virtue of his position.
http://www.militarytimes.com/apps/pb...=2013308160021
I can appreciate why you would answer the way you did, but you are wrong on a couple of points (keep in mind that I am answering as an AF SNCO retiree and one who has done the "first shirt" job before).

First of all, the First Sergeant is not the highest ranking enlisted person in the unit. In the AF, First Sergeant is a "special duty indicator" (sort of the equivalent to an Air Force Specialty Code -- the equivalent to a Army MOS). The job of the first sergeant is to advise the unit commander of matters involving the enlisted personnel in a unit as well as to communicate the commander's policies to the enlisted force. A key characteristic of the first sergeant job is that he/she is not in the chain of command. That is true whether you are talking about a fighter squadron, a communications squadron, or, as is the case here, the 326th Training Squadron at Lackland AFB.

Because of this the first sergeant would have only been responsible to advise the commander on the issue and give a recommendation. It would have been, typically, the Staff Sergeant's immediate supervisor who would have issued the discipline (in this case, the letter of counseling). The only times that I ever issued counseling or reprimands to enlisted people would have been for "general" morale and discipline areas: for example, if a enlisted person wrote a bad check, pulling an enlisted person out of jail after being caught DUI, issues in the barracks, and so on. I would never get involved in discipline that involved on the job issues. When I have done first sergeant duty, I knew that I was barely tolerated within the work center (and, when I was running a work center, I barely tolerated the unit first sergeant snooping around my work center).

In this case, a Staff Sergeant (chances are, a Training Instructor: the AF equivalent to a DI) was expressing his personal opinions to a bunch of basic trainees. SMSgt Monk was suggesting that it be used as a learning experience for the SSgt (perhaps a verbal counseling given by the SSgt's immediate supervisor). The commander wanted the SSgt nailed to the wall (an Article 15 or a Letter of Reprimand).

Believe it or not, I actually agree with the commander's judgment of how the SSgt should have been disciplined. Because of the extreme influence the Air Force Training Instructors have on their basic trainees, their personal opinions one way or the other on any issue should be kept strictly to themselves and have ABSOLUTELY no business being discussed with basic trainees.

Having said that, given the information in the EWTN article and the Military Times article, I do not agree with the commander's actions regarding her (now former) first sergeant. Those actions were capricious.
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  #12  
Old Aug 24, '13, 3:31 pm
SeannyM SeannyM is offline
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Default Re: Air Force sergeant says he was punished for views on marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by markomalley View Post
I can appreciate why you would answer the way you did, but you are wrong on a couple of points (keep in mind that I am answering as an AF SNCO retiree and one who has done the "first shirt" job before).

First of all, the First Sergeant is not the highest ranking enlisted person in the unit. In the AF, First Sergeant is a "special duty indicator" (sort of the equivalent to an Air Force Specialty Code -- the equivalent to a Army MOS). The job of the first sergeant is to advise the unit commander of matters involving the enlisted personnel in a unit as well as to communicate the commander's policies to the enlisted force. A key characteristic of the first sergeant job is that he/she is not in the chain of command. That is true whether you are talking about a fighter squadron, a communications squadron, or, as is the case here, the 326th Training Squadron at Lackland AFB.

Because of this the first sergeant would have only been responsible to advise the commander on the issue and give a recommendation. It would have been, typically, the Staff Sergeant's immediate supervisor who would have issued the discipline (in this case, the letter of counseling). The only times that I ever issued counseling or reprimands to enlisted people would have been for "general" morale and discipline areas: for example, if a enlisted person wrote a bad check, pulling an enlisted person out of jail after being caught DUI, issues in the barracks, and so on. I would never get involved in discipline that involved on the job issues. When I have done first sergeant duty, I knew that I was barely tolerated within the work center (and, when I was running a work center, I barely tolerated the unit first sergeant snooping around my work center).

In this case, a Staff Sergeant (chances are, a Training Instructor: the AF equivalent to a DI) was expressing his personal opinions to a bunch of basic trainees. SMSgt Monk was suggesting that it be used as a learning experience for the SSgt (perhaps a verbal counseling given by the SSgt's immediate supervisor). The commander wanted the SSgt nailed to the wall (an Article 15 or a Letter of Reprimand).

Believe it or not, I actually agree with the commander's judgment of how the SSgt should have been disciplined. Because of the extreme influence the Air Force Training Instructors have on their basic trainees, their personal opinions one way or the other on any issue should be kept strictly to themselves and have ABSOLUTELY no business being discussed with basic trainees.

Having said that, given the information in the EWTN article and the Military Times article, I do not agree with the commander's actions regarding her (now former) first sergeant. Those actions were capricious.
My understanding is that he was PCSed... And that he was due to PCS.
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Old Aug 24, '13, 3:37 pm
markomalley markomalley is offline
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Default Re: Air Force sergeant says he was punished for views on marriage

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Originally Posted by SeannyM View Post
My understanding is that he was PCSed... And that he was due to PCS.
He was moved over to Wilford Hall Medical Center...also on Lackland (that was the 59th Medical Wing...referenced in the AF Times article you linked).
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  #14  
Old Aug 24, '13, 4:37 pm
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Maso Maso is offline
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Default Re: Air Force sergeant says he was punished for views on marriage

Some day the law will require all school aged boys to be sodomized as some sort of "sensitivity" training.
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  #15  
Old Aug 24, '13, 4:58 pm
oldcatholicguy oldcatholicguy is offline
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Default Re: Air Force sergeant says he was punished for views on marriage

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Originally Posted by SeannyM View Post
She reprimanded him for disobeying her order to reprimand the instructor. Whether you agree with her course of action to punish the instructor, she is still within her rights as the commanding officer to do so. When my CO orders me to punish someone, even when I think it's too harsh, you better believe I obey him. If I were to say "no sir, I won't because I agree with what the Sailor did," I would be swiftly punished and I would deserve it. We MUST obey lawful orders, or else the military will cease to be effective.
-The article you linked says nothing about him being reprimanded for disobeying a direct order from her.

-The article you linked does state that she asked for his professional opinion, he gave it, she disagreed with it and instead of doing what an officer should do (namely- thank you for your opinion Sergeant but I have decided to do X), she forced him into a conversation concerning his personal beliefs (which he gave the only answer he could give- "“I cannot answer your question because of my convictions.”), and subsequently punished him for his personal opinion on the matter.

-If you are in a leadership position and do not voice your opinion to your CO (in private) concerning a punishment that you feel is too harsh than you are not doing your job as a leader for your subordinates. Leadership doesn't work just one way on the food chain.

-Now, if you happen to have a different article which clearly shows he refused a direct order to punish the soldier than please provide it.
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