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  #1  
Old Sep 17, '13, 10:39 am
meteoric meteoric is offline
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Default Jesus married -- any evidence?

Something mentioned in the female cardinal thread reminded me of a question I have.

I know that Jesus wasn't married. No question on that.

I also know Dan Brown said there was lots of evidence for it.

I have heard that it wasn't until the 600's that a book was written to support a king by claiming they were related by blood to Jesus through His and Mary Magdalene's child.

I've also read the book of Philip where Jesus and Mary kiss (but unlike in Brown's book, the actual manuscript does not say they kiss on the lips, it is actually missing one or more words at that point. It's an old document-- what do you want? )

And I have read some other first, second, and third century documents, but I'll freely admit, not a lot.

But no where do I see any evidence that Jesus was married.

So the real question is, is there any evidence, pre-fifth century? I'm sure there isn't in the writings of the fathers, but how about outside?

Thanks.

Tom A.
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  #2  
Old Sep 17, '13, 10:50 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Jesus married -- any evidence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meteoric View Post
I know that Jesus wasn't married. No question on that.
If this is so, why the question asking for evidence of marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meteoric View Post
I also know Dan Brown said there was lots of evidence for it.
Dan Brown writes fiction books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meteoric View Post
But no where do I see any evidence that Jesus was married.
That would be because there is no evidence because Jesus is God. To believe Jesus was married is to not understand Who Jesus is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meteoric View Post
So the real question is, is there any evidence, pre-fifth century? I'm sure there isn't in the writings of the fathers, but how about outside?
.
None pre-5th century, none post-5th century, none at all.
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ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
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  #3  
Old Sep 17, '13, 10:56 am
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CarolNoel CarolNoel is offline
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Default Re: Jesus married -- any evidence?

Great answers 1ke.
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  #4  
Old Sep 17, '13, 12:25 pm
MaryT777 MaryT777 is online now
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Default Re: Jesus married -- any evidence?

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Great answers 1ke.
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  #5  
Old Sep 17, '13, 12:37 pm
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Joe 5859 Joe 5859 is offline
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Default Re: Jesus married -- any evidence?

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Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
None pre-5th century, none post-5th century, none at all.
Exactly what we would expect for something that never happened.
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  #6  
Old Sep 17, '13, 12:43 pm
ProdglArchitect ProdglArchitect is offline
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Default Re: Jesus married -- any evidence?

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Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
To believe Jesus was married is to not understand Who Jesus is..
I'll preface this by saying that I do not even remotely think hat Jesus was married.

That being said, what's your reasoning for this statement? Why would it detract from Christ for him to have been married. After all, he was 100% human, just as he was 100% divine. There is nothing immoral about him, a Jewish man, taking a wife; so why do you think it would detract from him to have done so?
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  #7  
Old Sep 17, '13, 12:47 pm
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Jesus married -- any evidence?

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Originally Posted by ProdglArchitect View Post
I'll preface this by saying that I do not even remotely think hat Jesus was married.

That being said, what's your reasoning for this statement? Why would it detract from Christ for him to have been married. After all, he was 100% human, just as he was 100% divine. There is nothing immoral about him, a Jewish man, taking a wife; so why do you think it would detract from him to have done so?
Who Jesus is = God.
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ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
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  #8  
Old Sep 17, '13, 1:03 pm
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MarcoPolo MarcoPolo is offline
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Default Re: Jesus married -- any evidence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meteoric View Post
I also know Dan Brown said there was lots of evidence for it.

I have heard that it wasn't until the 600's that a book was written to support a king by claiming they were related by blood to Jesus through His and Mary Magdalene's child.

I've also read the book of Philip where Jesus and Mary kiss (but unlike in Brown's book, the actual manuscript does not say they kiss on the lips, it is actually missing one or more words at that point. It's an old document-- what do you want? )

And I have read some other first, second, and third century documents, but I'll freely admit, not a lot.

But no where do I see any evidence that Jesus was married.

So the real question is, is there any evidence, pre-fifth century? I'm sure there isn't in the writings of the fathers, but how about outside?

Thanks.

Tom A.
There really isn't. My research indicates Brown based his assertion in the book on the claim in the book Holy Blood, Holy Grail (one of the authors actually sued Brown for plagiarism) which in turn relied largely on the Gospel of Philip and the idea that "it was normal for a Jewish man to be married." Recently, a Harvard professor attempted to use a 4th century Coptic shred of paper to claim Jesus was married. Unfortunately, the fact that it only shows a fragment of a sentence quoting Jesus saying, "my wife" without any context is one strike, and the evidence that it's a forgery anyway is another. It is also worth being aware of a strong sentiment amongst secular culture and some non-Catholic traditions that are repelled by the idea of celibacy.
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  #9  
Old Sep 17, '13, 1:05 pm
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MarcoPolo MarcoPolo is offline
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Default Re: Jesus married -- any evidence?

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Originally Posted by ProdglArchitect View Post
I'll preface this by saying that I do not even remotely think hat Jesus was married.

That being said, what's your reasoning for this statement? Why would it detract from Christ for him to have been married. After all, he was 100% human, just as he was 100% divine. There is nothing immoral about him, a Jewish man, taking a wife; so why do you think it would detract from him to have done so?
The entire metaphor in the NT of Jesus being married to his bride the Church would seem somewhat nonsensical if he were married, especially for someone who encouraged those able to accept a call to celibacy to accept it.
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  #10  
Old Sep 17, '13, 1:15 pm
seagal seagal is offline
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Default Re: Jesus married -- any evidence?

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Originally Posted by Joe 5859 View Post
Exactly what we would expect for something that never happened.
Also exactly what we would expect if there was a coverup
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  #11  
Old Sep 17, '13, 1:36 pm
ProdglArchitect ProdglArchitect is offline
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Default Re: Jesus married -- any evidence?

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Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
Who Jesus is = God.
I recognize that, but Jesus was also man. God's relationship with the Jewish people was often presented as that of a husband and wife. Wouldn't such a marriage have symbolically held the same meaning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcoPolo
The entire metaphor in the NT of Jesus being married to his bride the Church would seem somewhat nonsensical if he were married, especially for someone who encouraged those able to accept a call to celibacy to accept it.
That metaphoric was never present during his life, but rather came about after his death. Having died, Christ would no longer be considered married to whomever his physical spouse was (as he stated when questioned by the pharisees... wait, no, by the Sadducees.) I see no logical break here. Especially with your celibacy example. Paul promoted celibacy, but was himself married. (That was Paul, right?.... I really, really need to learn my apostles better '-_-) Additionally, there are celibate marriages (Mary's, for example), so sex / offspring need not necessarily be considered.


Again, I would just like to state that I do not believe that Christ was married. I just have a hard time understanding why people think it would go against who He was. I'm not saying that it wouldn't go against who he was, simply that I do not understand why it would, if it would. God chose to lower himself to taking on human frailty, becoming one of us to cleanse us of our sins. There is nothing sinful about marriage, so why couldn't he have done so had he desired it? (This is not to be taken as an argument for his having been married either, so if someone's thinking it, you're taking my statements out of context / mis-interpreting them.)
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  #12  
Old Sep 17, '13, 1:52 pm
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R_C R_C is offline
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Default Re: Jesus married -- any evidence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProdglArchitect View Post
That being said, what's your reasoning for this statement? Why would it detract from Christ for him to have been married. After all, he was 100% human, just as he was 100% divine. There is nothing immoral about him, a Jewish man, taking a wife; so why do you think it would detract from him to have done so?
Because the Father did not give Him (as true man) the vocation to Matrimony to one woman.

He Himself said:

Quote:
Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it is granted.

Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God.

Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.
Christ is married, but to Holy Church, who is His body and of whom He is Head.

For it is written: "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." On quoting this, St. Paul remarks: "this is a great sacrament, but I speak of Christ and the Church".

Christ gives His body to His bride: "this is my body which will be given up for you". We give our body to Him: "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own." Christ further instruct us on the consummation of Holy Communion: "He who eats my flesh abides in me, and I in him." Literally, the two become one flesh.

And St. Paul teaches on Matrimony: "A wife is not the master of her own body, but her husband is; in the same way a husband is not the master of his own body, but his wife is."

St. Paul also reminds us: "the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church".

It is the Forerunner, John the Baptist, who pre-announces that Christ is the divine Bridegroom, whose friend he is, and tha we, the Church, are the Bride:

Quote:
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
The Revelation is even more clear:

Quote:
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [...] And there came unto me one of the seven angels [...] saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem
St. Paul, finally, addresses the faithful leaving no doubt concerning this matter:

Quote:
I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Quote:
Therefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law, by the body of Christ; that you may be married to another, to him who is risen again from the dead, that we may bring forth fruit to God.
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  #13  
Old Sep 17, '13, 1:58 pm
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MarcoPolo MarcoPolo is offline
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Default Re: Jesus married -- any evidence?

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Originally Posted by ProdglArchitect View Post
That metaphoric was never present during his life, but rather came about after his death. Having died, Christ would no longer be considered married to whomever his physical spouse was (as he stated when questioned by the pharisees... wait, no, by the Sadducees.)
I don't think this would entirely work, because the Apostles who wrote of Christ's espousal to the Church speak of himself giving himself to the Church on the cross, i.e. Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church, etc... In their writings are actions he did for his bride while alive, all the way up to death. It would seem counterintuitive to me for Christ to have been married in light of this. And I understand you do not believe he was married, but I would submit there is theological significance to him being espoused to the Church alone.

Quote:
I see no logical break here. Especially with your celibacy example. Paul promoted celibacy, but was himself married. (That was Paul, right?.... I really, really need to learn my apostles better '-_-) Additionally, there are celibate marriages (Mary's, for example), so sex / offspring need not necessarily be considered.
Paul promoted celibacy and was not married either. (1 Cor. 7:8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do.) Mary's case is certainly exceptional, especially in light of her espousal to the Holy Spirit, but I don't think if Christ had been in a celibate marriage that would have distorted the theology much less.

I agree it is not sinful to be married, but I would still say it does not fit with the theology of what Christ taught on earth or by the Spirit through the Apostles.
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  #14  
Old Sep 17, '13, 2:00 pm
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Default Re: Jesus married -- any evidence?

None.




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  #15  
Old Sep 17, '13, 2:13 pm
ProdglArchitect ProdglArchitect is offline
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Default Re: Jesus married -- any evidence?

Thank you R_C and Marco for the additional counterpoints. They make quite a bit of sense. It's honestly something I've never given much thought to, I never really considered it a possibility in light of his knowledge of the life he must live to fulfill his father's will; but I also never really thought it would cause an issue if he had chosen to take a bride, celibately or otherwise. I can see through your points where it could cause some theological difficulties if he had done so though.

Thanks for the info ^^
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