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  #1  
Old Oct 31, '05, 12:06 pm
garysibio garysibio is offline
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Default Famous People Born of Rape

Hi,

Thie other day my wife, who runs the CCD program at our parish, held a mini-retreat for kids who are to be confirmed. The question of abortion came up and someone asked about rape. I thought it might be interesting to compile a list of famous and influential people whose birth was the result of rape. Obviously I'm not looking to defend rape but to show the value of a life which began that way.

Gary
  #2  
Old Oct 31, '05, 12:13 pm
awalt awalt is offline
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Default Re: Famous People Born of Rape

Does it make abortion more palatable if there are more "famous" people born of rape? IMHO that's an argument that demeans the value of EVERY person's life.

A better discussion point might be, why punish the child for the sins of the father?
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  #3  
Old Oct 31, '05, 12:31 pm
frogman80 frogman80 is offline
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Default Re: Famous People Born of Rape

Quote:
Originally Posted by awalt
Does it make abortion more palatable if there are more "famous" people born of rape? IMHO that's an argument that demeans the value of EVERY person's life.

A better discussion point might be, why punish the child for the sins of the father?

I think such a list would make abortion "less" palatable...
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  #4  
Old Oct 31, '05, 1:07 pm
vluvski vluvski is offline
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Default Re: Famous People Born of Rape

She's not famous but there's a gal on a poster by Feminists for Life whose mother conceived her in rape.

My friend's fiance is a rape-conceived survivor. He's currently defending our country in the Marines.

Josh Groban's vocal trainer's adopted son is also a rape survivor. Almost famous, huh? (I know the baby's biological mother.)

I once crafted an extensive analogy to expose the absurdity of the "only for rape and incest" clause. The gist is this:
A person is the victim of a random shooting. His heart is damaged beyond repair. The police and EMTs wave over an innocent by-stander, and demand at gunpoint that he donates his heart to save the victim (assume it is a match). If this guy doesn't donate victim will die. Frankly, the situation is rather appalling.

The shooting victim is the rape victim. The bystander is the baby. The police officer and paramedics are the people who think the baby should be aborted. The cases are pretty parallel, except the victim's sitation is not life or death in the rape case. Instead, the child dies for the sake of convenience rather than to save someone else's life.

If the idea of forced organ donation bothers you, so should abortion of babies conceived through rape. You can add details and change the situation a little to make it more poignant, but I'm sure you get it anyway.
  #5  
Old Oct 31, '05, 1:32 pm
garysibio garysibio is offline
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Default Re: Famous People Born of Rape

>> Does it make abortion more palatable if there are more "famous" people born of rape? IMHO that's an argument that demeans the value of EVERY person's life. <<

I think you misunderstood where I was going. Hypotheically, let's say that the person who discovered penecillin had been conceived by rape. (That's not the case; I'm just using this as an example.) If he had been aborted, millions would have died because he never would have made the discovery. I don't see how that sort of thing demeans anyone.

Gary
  #6  
Old Oct 31, '05, 1:43 pm
cargopilot cargopilot is offline
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Default Re: Famous People Born of Rape

Seems like an honest question to me.

One of the most common 'what ifs' I get when defending my pro-life position is the one about rape. I would be glad to have a list of good people who were born of rape and lived to benefit mankind.

I clearly understood the OP's pro-life stance and look forward to some good, solid replies.
  #7  
Old Oct 31, '05, 2:26 pm
Verbum Caro's Avatar
Verbum Caro Verbum Caro is offline
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Default Re: Famous People Born of Rape

Gary and cargopilot,

While I understand the idea behind using famous people born of rape who avoided abortion, I think that we can profit by re-evaluating the usefullness of this approach.

From what I can gather the idea is to argue to CCD students that abortion is wrong, even in the case of rape. By showing them people who were children of rape, and who avoided abortion, that went on to become "famous" you are presumably dealing with the students where they are at. I suppose the reasoning is that the students beleive that an exception should be made in the case of rape because no good can come out of it, and by showing them the good that DID come out of it you cause them to question their premises.

But is this really the way we want to do this? The problem as I see it is that abortion and euthanasia thrive due to this type of calculus. A child is aborted because they have less "value" than the mother, or the mother's lifestyle, or the father's lifestyle, or the state's policies, or etc. etc. A person is euthanized because their life has less value than the money it costs to keep them alive, the time it take, the resources it depletes, the pain that is suffered, etc.

And that is exactly what they are doing, they are "calulating" the worth of child born of rape, and coming out with a negative balance. In other words the child is less than the pain to the mother, the burden on society, etc. Your approach is to "increase the value of the child", no? And you do this by showing them "famous" people.

But what about kids who will never be famous? Or handsome? Or smart? Or healthy?

Do you see what I am getting at? I think that by trying to find "famous" people you may be playing into the impermissible type of calculus that causes the problem in the first place.

In fact, I think that bring up this entire concept as I briefly sketched it above would be more helpful to you and the students. You could show them that some people might want to make exceptions for famous people (assuming we could look into the future), and why that is horribly unjust, untenable, and ultimately unprincipled. Perhaps another hypothetical to illustrate this would be to ask them if it were possible to perform genetic testing on the babies to find out which ones would be cute, whether or not that would be a sufficient basis to determine who would live or die. Isn't that very similar to argument from famous people?

The fact is that no standard as to whether someone should live or die is principled. We cannot make that determination.

What do you think? Do you understanding what I am getting at?
God Bless,
VC
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  #8  
Old Oct 31, '05, 2:27 pm
mumto5 mumto5 is offline
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Default Re: Famous People Born of Rape

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysibio
>> Does it make abortion more palatable if there are more "famous" people born of rape? IMHO that's an argument that demeans the value of EVERY person's life. <<

I think you misunderstood where I was going. Hypotheically, let's say that the person who discovered penecillin had been conceived by rape. (That's not the case; I'm just using this as an example.) If he had been aborted, millions would have died because he never would have made the discovery. I don't see how that sort of thing demeans anyone.

Gary
I don't know how effective that would be because if you come up with such an argument, the counter argument is always, "But what if Hitler's mother had had an abortion?" or "In the same way, many rapists and murders would be aborted - probably more than there are people who save lives." You need a response to that one too.
  #9  
Old Oct 31, '05, 11:18 pm
garysibio garysibio is offline
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Default Re: Famous People Born of Rape

Guys, this is a bunch of 7th and 8th graders, not the Oxford Debating Society. They want to know why the Church opposes abortion and what it means to them. They're about as likely to sprout wings and fly as to put the amount of thought into it as some here are suggesting.


>> I don't know how effective that would be because if you come up with such an argument, the counter argument is always, "But what if Hitler's mother had had an abortion?" or "In the same way, many rapists and murders would be aborted - probably more than there are people who save lives." You need a response to that one too. <<

The Hitler example is a non sequiter since he was not conceived by rape. Here's the way the conversation goes:

Teacher: Abortion is always wrong.

Student: What about if the woman is raped.

Teacher: The child is innocent of the rape. He or she does not deserve to be punished for it.

Student: That's going to be an unfair burden for the woman.

Teacher: If the mother doesn't want to raise the child, which is understandable since it will always remind her of the rape, she can give it up for adoption. Just because a child was conceived by rape, doesn't mean that he is unimportant. These people were all conceived by rape and made significant contributions to society.


>> And that is exactly what they are doing, they are "calulating" the worth of child born of rape, and coming out with a negative balance. In other words the child is less than the pain to the mother, the burden on society, etc. Your approach is to "increase the value of the child", no? And you do this by showing them "famous" people.

But what about kids who will never be famous? Or handsome? Or smart? Or healthy? <<

They're not calculating anything. They're more concerned with whether it's fair or not for the woman to have to bear the child. The idea of the list is to get them to think more of the child, to see that a child of rape still deserves to live.

Gary
  #10  
Old Nov 1, '05, 1:00 pm
Didi Didi is offline
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Default Re: Famous People Born of Rape

You might check out www.priestsforlife.org or www.hopeafterabortion.com to get some information about the terrible effects abortion has on a woman.

Those who are pro-life are not just concerned about the baby, but about the mother. Abortion is devastating physically, emotionally and spiritually on the mother. She is more likely to fall into depression, drug use, abusive relationships, and attempt or commit suicide.
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  #11  
Old Nov 1, '05, 1:20 pm
fix fix is offline
 
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Default Re: Famous People Born of Rape

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysibio
They're not calculating anything. They're more concerned with whether it's fair or not for the woman to have to bear the child. The idea of the list is to get them to think more of the child, to see that a child of rape still deserves to live.

Gary
It would seem that if the students simply see this issue as one of fairness and burden you may want to lead them to see that life is more than a series of burdens and issues of fairness.
  #12  
Old Nov 1, '05, 2:35 pm
mumto5 mumto5 is offline
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Default Re: Famous People Born of Rape

Is it really appropriate for this topic to be expanded on by someone who is not the parent? It seems you were asked a simple question (or not so simple) and now you want to take it further. Sure, if they are 15/16, but these are 12 year olds. Do the parents know you intend to cover this topic with their children?
  #13  
Old Nov 1, '05, 2:50 pm
LSK LSK is offline
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Default Re: Famous People Born of Rape

I have a different approach - and I think the OP had a good idea but this might be better.

You may wish to contact your local pro-life or silent no more group and see if there are any women who have survived rape and chose to have their child
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  #14  
Old Nov 1, '05, 3:25 pm
Breton Breton is offline
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Default Re: Famous People Born of Rape

Garysibio,

Sorry you're hitting such a wall here. I think the list idea has merit; helps to put a human face on all the statistics. Although, I also agree with LSK's idea of bringing in someone local. I think it is difficult for kids to grasp the idea of millions of children falling prey to abortion each year. Putting a name and a face with anyone of those millions that your kids can relate to would certainly help.

I imagine your wife is running the CCD program at your parish because she is trusted within the community. Don't know why anyone should assume that you don't know what is the best approach for those kids.

Here is an interesting story from a child born of rape.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/617276/posts

Good luck.
  #15  
Old Nov 1, '05, 4:39 pm
Eileen T Eileen T is offline
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Default Re: Famous People Born of Rape

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysibio
Hi,

Thie other day my wife, who runs the CCD program at our parish, held a mini-retreat for kids who are to be confirmed. The question of abortion came up and someone asked about rape. I thought it might be interesting to compile a list of famous and influential people whose birth was the result of rape. Obviously I'm not looking to defend rape but to show the value of a life which began that way.
I know where you are going with this and I agree that the age group you are dealing with need an incentive to personalise the issue.

Pam Stentzil who has made the video The Price Tag of Sex puts it so well, all she knows about her father is that he was a rapist. Her husband and children are as glad as she is that she was not aborted.

Singer Ethel Waters was conceived from rape.
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