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  #1  
Old Oct 13, '13, 3:38 am
Sultan Of Swing Sultan Of Swing is offline
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Default 24 yea, 15 nay, 16 abstain?! Council of Trent and the canon of Scripture

Was reading on Wikipedia, and this came up and intrigued me. (Yes I know Wikipedia isn't the most reliable of places...)

"The Council of Trent on April 8, 1546, by vote (24 yea, 15 nay, 16 abstain) approved the present Roman Catholic Bible Canon including the Deuterocanonical Books."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Develop...uncil_of_Trent

Waaaait... what? Is this true? If the canon of scripture was set in stone as some Catholics like to claim before this point, then how come 15 cardinals/bishops voted no to the canon, and 16 abstained?! You'd think it would be a bit more unanimous than that??
  #2  
Old Oct 13, '13, 5:59 am
Hieronymi Hieronymi is offline
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Default Re: 24 yea, 15 nay, 16 abstain?! Council of Trent and the canon of Scripture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sultan Of Swing View Post
Was reading on Wikipedia, and this came up and intrigued me. (Yes I know Wikipedia isn't the most reliable of places...)

"The Council of Trent on April 8, 1546, by vote (24 yea, 15 nay, 16 abstain) approved the present Roman Catholic Bible Canon including the Deuterocanonical Books."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Develop...uncil_of_Trent

Waaaait... what? Is this true? If the canon of scripture was set in stone as some Catholics like to claim before this point, then how come 15 cardinals/bishops voted no to the canon, and 16 abstained?! You'd think it would be a bit more unanimous than that??
A cursory Internet search produces a plentiful supply of protestant websites that use the exact verbiage as the wikipedia quote. Apparently, the statement (from-Wiki, Metzger pg. 246) is being used as an "Aha!" moment against the Catholic Church.
May cooler heads prevail:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm & http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm

Last edited by Hieronymi; Oct 13, '13 at 6:14 am. Reason: Additional info
  #3  
Old Oct 13, '13, 6:11 am
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Chesster Chesster is offline
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Default Re: 24 yea, 15 nay, 16 abstain?! Council of Trent and the canon of Scripture

According to St. Alphonsus Liguori is his work on the Council of Trent, he states that, "all were of the opinion that the Council should approve of all the sacred books."

The only question where there was some difficulty was, "whether the books which we have of the Bible should be subjected to a new examination for approbation." St. Alphonsus goes on to say, "many, with Cardinal Del Monte and cardinal Pacecco objected to such an examination, saying that it was the practice of the Church not to call in question definitions already made. On the other hand, many maintained that the examination should be made in order to give greater authority to the truth . . ." He does not give a breakdown of the vote but I assume that this is what the article is referring to.
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  #4  
Old Oct 13, '13, 6:14 am
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JRKH JRKH is offline
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Default Re: 24 yea, 15 nay, 16 abstain?! Council of Trent and the canon of Scripture

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The Best book on Spirituality that I ever Read: "The Fulfillment of All Desire"

Oh my God , I will continue
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Amen.
  #5  
Old Oct 13, '13, 7:20 am
dmar198 dmar198 is offline
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Default Re: 24 yea, 15 nay, 16 abstain?! Council of Trent and the canon of Scripture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sultan Of Swing View Post
Was reading on Wikipedia, and this came up and intrigued me. (Yes I know Wikipedia isn't the most reliable of places...)

"The Council of Trent on April 8, 1546, by vote (24 yea, 15 nay, 16 abstain) approved the present Roman Catholic Bible Canon including the Deuterocanonical Books."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Develop...uncil_of_Trent

Waaaait... what? Is this true? If the canon of scripture was set in stone as some Catholics like to claim before this point, then how come 15 cardinals/bishops voted no to the canon, and 16 abstained?! You'd think it would be a bit more unanimous than that??
The Wikipedia article is inaccurate and it misapplies its source in Metzger. The vote re: the Deuterocanon was a unanimous vote -- not a single Council Father voted against the current Canon of Scripture. They all voted unanimously simply to repeat the Canon that had been listed at the Council of Florence, which included the Deuterocanon. The official language was: "Et omnes responderunt placet" -- "And all responded yes." After that, they held a vote on whether they should include an anathema which would excommunicate all who disagreed; that was where only 24 of them voted in favor of the anathema. But the Canon itself was unanimously approved with the Deuterocanon. source

Metzger's book itself, as quoted by Wikipedia, does not say that they voted 24-15-16 to "approve [] the present Roman Catholic Bible Canon" (as Wikipedia incorrectly infers) but rather that they voted 24-15-16 to make that Canon "an absolute article of faith [] confirmed by an anathema." There's a big difference between those two things. What Wikipedia should say is that the Council Fathers voted unanimously to "approve [] the present Roman Catholic Bible Canon" and then voted 24-15-16 to anathematize all who disagree.
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  #6  
Old Oct 13, '13, 7:21 am
adf417 adf417 is offline
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Default Re: 24 yea, 15 nay, 16 abstain?! Council of Trent and the canon of Scripture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hieronymi View Post
A cursory Internet search produces a plentiful supply of protestant websites that use the exact verbiage as the wikipedia quote. Apparently, the statement (from-Wiki, Metzger pg. 246) is being used as an "Aha!" moment against the Catholic Church.
May cooler heads prevail:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm & http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm
Is there a tally of votes in here?
  #7  
Old Oct 13, '13, 7:32 am
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pnewton pnewton is offline
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Default Re: 24 yea, 15 nay, 16 abstain?! Council of Trent and the canon of Scripture

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmar198 View Post
What Wikipedia should say is that the Council Fathers voted unanimously to "approve the present Roman Catholic Bible Canon" and then voted 24-15-16 to anathematize all who disagree.
Wiki got it wrong! Say it ain't so, dmoe. Thanks for the link and clarification. Well done.
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  #8  
Old Oct 13, '13, 7:41 am
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JRKH JRKH is offline
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Default Re: 24 yea, 15 nay, 16 abstain?! Council of Trent and the canon of Scripture

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmar198 View Post
The Wikipedia article is inaccurate and it misapplies its source in Metzger. The vote re: the Deuterocanon was a unanimous vote -- not a single Council Father voted against the current Canon of Scripture. They all voted unanimously simply to repeat the Canon that had been listed at the Council of Florence, which included the Deuterocanon. The official language was: "Et omnes responderunt placet" -- "And all responded yes." After that, they held a vote on whether they should include an anathema which would excommunicate all who disagreed; that was where only 24 of them voted in favor of the anathema. But the Canon itself was unanimously approved with the Deuterocanon. source

Metzger's book itself, as quoted by Wikipedia, does not say that they voted 24-15-16 to "approve [] the present Roman Catholic Bible Canon" (as Wikipedia incorrectly infers) but rather that they voted 24-15-16 to make that Canon "an absolute article of faith [] confirmed by an anathema." There's a big difference between those two things. What Wikipedia should say is that the Council Fathers voted unanimously to "approve [] the present Roman Catholic Bible Canon" and then voted 24-15-16 to anathematize all who disagree.
Thanks for the Article - - Very informative...

Peace
James
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.... if I have all faith so as to move mountians but have not love, I am nothing. - (1Cor 13:2)


The Best book on Spirituality that I ever Read: "The Fulfillment of All Desire"

Oh my God , I will continue
to perform, all my actions
for the love of Thee
Amen.
  #9  
Old Oct 13, '13, 8:02 am
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rfournier103 rfournier103 is offline
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Default Re: 24 yea, 15 nay, 16 abstain?! Council of Trent and the canon of Scripture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sultan Of Swing View Post
Was reading on Wikipedia, and this came up and intrigued me. (Yes I know Wikipedia isn't the most reliable of places...)

"The Council of Trent on April 8, 1546, by vote (24 yea, 15 nay, 16 abstain) approved the present Roman Catholic Bible Canon including the Deuterocanonical Books."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Develop...uncil_of_Trent

Waaaait... what? Is this true? If the canon of scripture was set in stone as some Catholics like to claim before this point, then how come 15 cardinals/bishops voted no to the canon, and 16 abstained?! You'd think it would be a bit more unanimous than that??

Sultan... As a practicing Catholic, I feel obligated to tell you that Wikipedia may not be the most accurate source for all things Catholic. In fact, except for minor topics (sports, etc...), Wikipedia is notoriously UN-reliable. They are the used car salesmen of online encyclopedias.

There are a great many online Catholic apologetics sites that cover the Deuterocanon, as well as the Council of Trent.

~http://catholiceducation.org/article...cs/ap0120.html
~http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/...k-by-book.html
~http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/...y-book_28.html
~http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15030c.htm

There are also many tracts and threads here on www.catholic.com about BOTH subjects. Good hunting!
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  #10  
Old Oct 13, '13, 8:15 am
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Michael Francis Michael Francis is offline
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Default Re: 24 yea, 15 nay, 16 abstain?! Council of Trent and the canon of Scripture

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