Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Catholic Living > Family Life
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Oct 23, '13, 6:58 pm
royal archer royal archer is offline
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Posts: 3,735
Religion: Catholic
Default obamacare marital separation

With Obamacare and my employer being forced to shed healthcare costs, our costs are going through the roof. my wife has no income and I was wondering if there were any options to a civil separation so we could divide the income. EG, could she go on disability, welfare, obamacare while I continue to work with my income insulated from her. Are there any resources on how to approach this and calculate the potential savings/income. If we do anything I want to be sure to do it by the book.
  #2  
Old Oct 23, '13, 7:09 pm
1ke 1ke is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: May 25, 2004
Posts: 24,157
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: obamacare marital separation

This would be known as: fraud (civilly)

Morally it is wrong. Marriage is a public witness. We become one flesh. We embrace the other totally. We do not civilly separate or divorce to apply for government benefits.
__________________
Pax, ke

ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
  #3  
Old Oct 23, '13, 7:24 pm
SamH SamH is offline
 
Join Date: June 10, 2009
Posts: 16,829
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: obamacare marital separation

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
This would be known as: fraud (civilly)

Morally it is wrong. Marriage is a public witness. We become one flesh. We embrace the other totally. We do not civilly separate or divorce to apply for government benefits.
What you defined has nothing to do with what the government considers marriage. Basically as long as no farm animals are harmed its a valid marriage.
  #4  
Old Oct 23, '13, 7:39 pm
royal archer royal archer is offline
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Posts: 3,735
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: obamacare marital separation

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
This would be known as: fraud (civilly)

Morally it is wrong. Marriage is a public witness. We become one flesh. We embrace the other totally. We do not civilly separate or divorce to apply for government benefits.
Do you have to declare a reason for a civil separation? What is the fraud according to the letter of the law. Yes it might be a misrepresentation of intent but I am not sure how it would be any different than two people who have marital relations but decided not to get married in order to avoid loosing welfare benefits, etc. If there are an nuances necessary to avoid committing fraud, I'd like to know what they are. As I said, I want to operate within the letter of the law.

As for Morally, the moral union would remain intact as witnessed by the church and inseparable. I am purely talking about the civil aspect of the union which carries no moral weight.

By the way, I am not trying to get something for nothing, I pay well above my fair share of taxes, I just want to stop paying so far above my fair share. Besides there are many single women benefiting from the taxes I pay, why shouldn't my own wife be able to get some of that money?
  #5  
Old Oct 23, '13, 7:50 pm
Jon S's Avatar
Jon S Jon S is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 9, 2013
Posts: 4,039
Religion: Catholic (Easter Vigil 2014!)
Default Re: obamacare marital separation

Quote:
Originally Posted by royal archer View Post
With Obamacare and my employer being forced to shed healthcare costs, our costs are going through the roof. my wife has no income and I was wondering if there were any options to a civil separation so we could divide the income. EG, could she go on disability, welfare, obamacare while I continue to work with my income insulated from her. Are there any resources on how to approach this and calculate the potential savings/income. If we do anything I want to be sure to do it by the book.
Not just immoral but illegal. It is cheating the system like this that screws everyone over.
__________________
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est
Where charity and love are, God is there.
  #6  
Old Oct 23, '13, 7:53 pm
Jon S's Avatar
Jon S Jon S is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 9, 2013
Posts: 4,039
Religion: Catholic (Easter Vigil 2014!)
Default Re: obamacare marital separation

Quote:
Originally Posted by royal archer View Post
Do you have to declare a reason for a civil separation? What is the fraud according to the letter of the law. Yes it might be a misrepresentation of intent but I am not sure how it would be any different than two people who have marital relations but decided not to get married in order to avoid loosing welfare benefits, etc. If there are an nuances necessary to avoid committing fraud, I'd like to know what they are. As I said, I want to operate within the letter of the law.

As for Morally, the moral union would remain intact as witnessed by the church and inseparable. I am purely talking about the civil aspect of the union which carries no moral weight.

By the way, I am not trying to get something for nothing, I pay well above my fair share of taxes, I just want to stop paying so far above my fair share. Besides there are many single women benefiting from the taxes I pay, why shouldn't my own wife be able to get some of that money?

Yes you do have to declare a reason, your wife will also be entitled to alimony and child support. The court should order those amounts paid to her which she will have to declare as income and pay tax on (the alimony) and factor in to welfare reception.

At the end I the day I doubt you would be ahead, and f she ever gets pissed at you she's halfway to taking all you have.
__________________
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est
Where charity and love are, God is there.
  #7  
Old Oct 23, '13, 8:11 pm
royal archer royal archer is offline
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Posts: 3,735
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: obamacare marital separation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post
Yes you do have to declare a reason, your wife will also be entitled to alimony and child support. The court should order those amounts paid to her which she will have to declare as income and pay tax on (the alimony) and factor in to welfare reception. .
Could the reason be undue financial hardship?

I was thinking an uncontested divorce with agreed to child support of one dollar and alimony of one dollar,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post
At the end I the day I doubt you would be ahead, and f she ever gets pissed at you she's halfway to taking all you have.


Actually she would only get a quarter, the government already takes half... but the important thing is that the family gets to keep my income, I already give her most of my income (except for some spending cash).
  #8  
Old Oct 23, '13, 8:18 pm
YADA YADA is offline
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: October 21, 2004
Posts: 3,669
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: obamacare marital separation

Quote:
Originally Posted by royal archer View Post
With Obamacare and my employer being forced to shed healthcare costs, our costs are going through the roof. my wife has no income and I was wondering if there were any options to a civil separation so we could divide the income. EG, could she go on disability, welfare, obamacare while I continue to work with my income insulated from her. Are there any resources on how to approach this and calculate the potential savings/income. If we do anything I want to be sure to do it by the book.
As others have said - this would be illegal, immoral ... and this is exactly why government should not be this involved in our lives ...

When people don't marry in order to obtain government subsidies and benefits and then also start divorcing and obtaining legal separations in order to gain government benefits ... while living as married - that is a lie and theft .... and our country is in moral decline and entering into a form of slavery ....

It also implies that you have a right to obtain the financial support of your neighbors - that you attempt to justify it by saying you pay more taxes then others and therefor are entitled is absurd .. it is theft ....

Think of it this way ....

How would you feel in this scenario .... If you and your wife had two daughters. One was married to a man who had a good enough job to provide for her ... they were doing well enough financially. Your other daughter struggled financially and needed assistance from you at times. Now - your son in law knew that you would never let his wife [your daughter] want for anything and together they decided to tell you that they were splitting up ... not in reality - they would still be together in every sense - except just not tell you they were. Then your daughter comes to you and gets you to provide some additional financial assistance .. This assistance makes their life easier - now your daughter and son in law can make their income spread farther and they can take that vacation ...

Would you feel this was honest?

Is this behavior moral?

Is this the way you want them to think about your money .. like its theirs to get by hook or crook?

Would you have respect for your son in law? Your daughter?

Well - the tax payers want the government to use the tax revenues wisely, not waste it, not give it to people who scam the system
__________________
Living the Journey,

YADA
Respect Christ - Vote Life
  #9  
Old Oct 23, '13, 8:23 pm
YADA YADA is offline
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: October 21, 2004
Posts: 3,669
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: obamacare marital separation

Quote:
Originally Posted by royal archer View Post
Could the reason be undue financial hardship?

I was thinking an uncontested divorce with agreed to child support of one dollar and alimony of one dollar,




Actually she would only get a quarter, the government already takes half... but the important thing is that the family gets to keep my income, I already give her most of my income (except for some spending cash).
So would you establish two households [twice the rent/mortgage, utilities ] - live apart - give up marital relations ....

- Are you for real ..?

Theft, lies, deceit, ... and you justify this behavior how?

You are either a scam artist or totally without scruples - or both
__________________
Living the Journey,

YADA
Respect Christ - Vote Life
  #10  
Old Oct 23, '13, 8:28 pm
royal archer royal archer is offline
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Posts: 3,735
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: obamacare marital separation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post
Not just immoral but illegal. It is cheating the system like this that screws everyone over.
Do you know what law it would break? Because I do want to work within the letter of the law.

As far as cheating the system, the system is designed to allow for this stuff, think about the 47% who pay no taxes or those who only pay a few thousand in taxes instead of their fair share, by not working harder, they are cheating the system. The government is raiding my wallet and handing out my money, I see nothing wrong with getting my money back as long as it is within the letter of the law.

As for the impact on everyone, well the only people who are being negatively impacted are the 20% who pay their fair share of taxes, of which I am one. so basically it is me trying to defend my family from all of the others who are on various welfare programs.
  #11  
Old Oct 23, '13, 8:30 pm
YADA YADA is offline
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: October 21, 2004
Posts: 3,669
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: obamacare marital separation

Quote:
Originally Posted by royal archer View Post
Do you know what law it would break? Because I do want to work within the letter of the law.

As far as cheating the system, the system is designed to allow for this stuff, think about the 47% who pay no taxes or those who only pay a few thousand in taxes instead of their fair share, by not working harder, they are cheating the system. The government is raiding my wallet and handing out my money, I see nothing wrong with getting my money back as long as it is within the letter of the law.

As for the impact on everyone, well the only people who are being negatively impacted are the 20% who pay their fair share of taxes, of which I am one. so basically it is me trying to defend my family from all of the others who are on various welfare programs.
Everybody does it ...so that makes it okay

Do you intend to live separately? - two households? If not you are a lier and a cheat and a thief
__________________
Living the Journey,

YADA
Respect Christ - Vote Life
  #12  
Old Oct 23, '13, 8:37 pm
royal archer royal archer is offline
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Posts: 3,735
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: obamacare marital separation

Quote:
Originally Posted by YADA View Post
So would you establish two households [twice the rent/mortgage, utilities ] - live apart - give up marital relations ....

- Are you for real ..?

Theft, lies, deceit, ... and you justify this behavior how?

You are either a scam artist or totally without scruples - or both
I doubt that the majority of current welfare recipients are living chaste lives.

We were looking at a vacation/retirement property that could qualify as one residence if it was required. as for living apart, I barely see them anyway since I spend so many hours working.

How is it theft, I am trying to work within the laws as they are set up. If the law allows a divorced woman to receive a benefit and deny equal benefit to a non divorced woman, It would be merely adjusting status to accommodate the law.

Actually, any able bodied person who does not pay their fair share of taxes or who takes entitlements could be considered a scam artist. Would you call the 50% who pay no taxes or the 30% who pay less than $6000 per year in federal taxes scam artists? I am still paying my fair share, I just want to stop paying as much over my fair share as I have been.
  #13  
Old Oct 23, '13, 8:40 pm
royal archer royal archer is offline
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Posts: 3,735
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: obamacare marital separation

Quote:
Originally Posted by YADA View Post
Everybody does it ...so that makes it okay
I am trying to find out if it can be done within the letter of the law. if it is within the law it is OK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YADA View Post
Do you intend to live separately? - two households? If not you are a lier and a cheat and a thief
No I intend to live as two loving people who have decided that being married (as defined in civil law) is not in their best interest. I intend to be very honest and within the letter of the law. I am not the one who wrote the laws which make if financially advantageous for two people to shack up instead of being married.
  #14  
Old Oct 23, '13, 8:42 pm
Jon S's Avatar
Jon S Jon S is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 9, 2013
Posts: 4,039
Religion: Catholic (Easter Vigil 2014!)
Default Re: obamacare marital separation

Quote:
Originally Posted by royal archer View Post
Could the reason be undue financial hardship?

I was thinking an uncontested divorce with agreed to child support of one dollar and alimony of one dollar,
The judge won't sign off on this.

Quote:
Actually she would only get a quarter, the government already takes half... but the important thing is that the family gets to keep my income, I already give her most of my income (except for some spending cash).

All support factors are based on pre tax income....I'm divorced and to say your screwed is an understatement.
__________________
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est
Where charity and love are, God is there.
  #15  
Old Oct 23, '13, 8:43 pm
Jon S's Avatar
Jon S Jon S is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 9, 2013
Posts: 4,039
Religion: Catholic (Easter Vigil 2014!)
Default Re: obamacare marital separation

Quote:
Originally Posted by YADA View Post
As others have said - this would be illegal, immoral ... and this is exactly why government should not be this involved in our lives ...

When people don't marry in order to obtain government subsidies and benefits and then also start divorcing and obtaining legal separations in order to gain government benefits ... while living as married - that is a lie and theft .... and our country is in moral decline and entering into a form of slavery ....

It also implies that you have a right to obtain the financial support of your neighbors - that you attempt to justify it by saying you pay more taxes then others and therefor are entitled is absurd .. it is theft ....

Think of it this way ....

How would you feel in this scenario .... If you and your wife had two daughters. One was married to a man who had a good enough job to provide for her ... they were doing well enough financially. Your other daughter struggled financially and needed assistance from you at times. Now - your son in law knew that you would never let his wife [your daughter] want for anything and together they decided to tell you that they were splitting up ... not in reality - they would still be together in every sense - except just not tell you they were. Then your daughter comes to you and gets you to provide some additional financial assistance .. This assistance makes their life easier - now your daughter and son in law can make their income spread farther and they can take that vacation ...

Would you feel this was honest?

Is this behavior moral?

Is this the way you want them to think about your money .. like its theirs to get by hook or crook?

Would you have respect for your son in law? Your daughter?

Well - the tax payers want the government to use the tax revenues wisely, not waste it, not give it to people who scam the system


THIS!!!!!!!!
__________________
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est
Where charity and love are, God is there.
Closed Thread

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Catholic Living > Family Life

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8243Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: GLam8833
5004CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: mountee
4342Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: James_OPL
4029OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: B79
3830SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3556Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3219Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3203Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: memphian
3104Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3045For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: flower lady



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 3:11 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.