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  #1  
Old Oct 23, '13, 9:05 pm
minion minion is offline
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Default Pope Francis: "the Church is like Mary who brings Jesus and is not a shop or a humanitarian agency"

So, I was watching youtube and ran into this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AZR_qD3SYI

...and I won't deny something about it left a sour taste in my mouth, though I couldn't quite put my finger on it.

I was just wondering if anyone could clarify, both in regards to the Church, and in regards to Mary.
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  #2  
Old Oct 24, '13, 12:14 am
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boomerang boomerang is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: "the Church is like Mary who brings Jesus and is not a shop or a humanitarian agency"

Pope Francis has a very practical, simple and straight-forward view of what the church's proper role is in society. We are here to spread the Good News. We are to yell from the roof-tops that Christ is real, and He is our salvation. That's about it.

The Catholic Church has grown so large and cumbersome and unwieldy, like an ancient battleship, fighting here and there with the forces of secular society, delving into politics, taking on the role of moral police for the whole world, when we are called upon to simply preach the gospel. The gospel just gets lost in it all. I think he wants to get back to our roots as the trumpeters of Christ's message and not focus on the political quagmires that we find ourselves battling. Convert the people's hearts, and the morality will follow.

Society is sick, and Jesus is the medicine. We need to bring Jesus to all the sick people, instead we are perceived as the church of "NO". No gay marriage, no abortion, no communion for those who remarry. No cohabitating, No birth control. No, No, No! Of course those things are important and essential, but first the sick need to hear "YES!" Yes to Jesus! All else will follow.
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  #3  
Old Oct 24, '13, 12:31 am
robert chacon robert chacon is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: "the Church is like Mary who brings Jesus and is not a shop or a humanitarian agency"

Im not sure why this or anything the pope states should leave a bad taste in your mouth. He was the one elected with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not you nor I.

I didnt follow he video from the popes actual spoken word but simply heard what that narrator said. So, what is problematic regarding the simile comparing Mary to the Church ? Isnt that precisely why we honor the Blessed Mother, because she brings us to Christ, just as the Church is called to bring the Word of God to the world? What am I missing that would cause concern here?

And as for the admonition to not treat the Church as simply a social service agency or place to get assistance like its just another mode of human interaction, such as a store to get goods and services, is that how you see the Church? So what is the problem with this statement? Hes not saying we should not do good works but they are all in the context of bringing Christ to others. If the mission of the Church is primarily a social justice campaign without the context of the Gospel message of Christ, then the Church is simply a place of social exchange, like a store or a government agency.

It seems clear to me that the pope has been steering between both the left and right extremes of the Church. He has been admonishing us not to get become judgmental in our application of doctrine and dogma. The more traditional of us can tend to do exactly this. On the other hand, in this statement you bring attention to, it seems clear that he is reminding us that Church's mission is not just to carry out good works for the poor, but to bring Jesus Christ to the world in everything we do. Whatever we do, if Christ is not our motivation, then we fail to be Christians. Both extremes can leave Christ behind and just focus on the exterior actions.

So, please, what am I missing??
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  #4  
Old Oct 24, '13, 3:40 am
razzandazz razzandazz is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: "the Church is like Mary who brings Jesus and is not a shop or a humanitarian agency"

Quote:
Originally Posted by minion View Post
So, I was watching youtube and ran into this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AZR_qD3SYI

...and I won't deny something about it left a sour taste in my mouth, though I couldn't quite put my finger on it.

I was just wondering if anyone could clarify, both in regards to the Church, and in regards to Mary.
The Bible is the living Word of God and has all the answers. John 3:17 says:" For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." The Pope is asking that we act more like Jesus.
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  #5  
Old Oct 24, '13, 4:24 am
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McDale721 McDale721 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: "the Church is like Mary who brings Jesus and is not a shop or a humanitarian agency"

Read Ratzinger/von Balthazar - Mary the Church at the Source. What Pope Francis is saying is very much in line with that.
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  #6  
Old Oct 24, '13, 4:30 am
fred conty fred conty is online now
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Default Re: Pope Francis: "the Church is like Mary who brings Jesus and is not a shop or a humanitarian agency"

Quote:
Originally Posted by minion View Post
So, I was watching youtube and ran into this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AZR_qD3SYI

...and I won't deny something about it left a sour taste in my mouth, though I couldn't quite put my finger on it.

I was just wondering if anyone could clarify, both in regards to the Church, and in regards to Mary.
It is a slant on the approach we take. Love everyone as Jesus does, and morals will follow. Not the other way around.

Mary brought us Jesus on Christmas, not the 10 commandments. Even tho the commandments are important.

In our efforts we bring the love and knowledge of Jesus to others thru our good example and kindness, otherwise we become a humanitarian repair shop.

In brief, God looks to the motive, love in Jesus' name.

May God bless us one and all.
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  #7  
Old Oct 24, '13, 5:50 am
coachdennis coachdennis is online now
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Default Re: Pope Francis: "the Church is like Mary who brings Jesus and is not a shop or a humanitarian agency"

Francis is challenging people to reflect on what it means to be Catholic.

I work and know many people who are not religious, go to church , etc, who give regularly their time and many to charity, work with the homeless, are always there with a cassrole dish when there is a death in the family -- in short, they practice many of the corporal works of mercy much more often than many Catholics I grew up with and worship with today.

What makes one of them "different" than the Catholic standing next to them in a soup kitchen handing out food? What is distinctive about being Catholic? Is there something "more"?

I believe Pope Francis calling on us to see not just "faith without works is dead faith", but "good works without faith" is what....incomplete?
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  #8  
Old Oct 24, '13, 8:16 am
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JimR-OCDS JimR-OCDS is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: "the Church is like Mary who brings Jesus and is not a shop or a humanitarian agency"

Pope Francis is presenting to the world, a Christ Centered Church, which is the mission which Jesus called the very first Apostles to.

Mary brings us to Jesus, so too the Church must bring people to Jesus.


Jim
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  #9  
Old Oct 24, '13, 8:49 am
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: "the Church is like Mary who brings Jesus and is not a shop or a humanitarian agency"

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Originally Posted by JimR-OCDS View Post
Pope Francis is presenting to the world, a Christ Centered Church, which is the mission which Jesus called the very first Apostles to.

Mary brings us to Jesus, so too the Church must bring people to Jesus.


Jim
Well, Benedict, John Paul 2, etc didn't bring a DIFFERENT or 'non Christ centered' church to the world, so I fail to understand what the fuss is. There is nothing yet that Francis has said or done regarding TEACHING that Benedict, John Paul 2 etc did NOT say or do..

The ONLY difference is the way that the media is presenting it --which is in presenting Francis' teaching as 'new' or a 'change'.

Go through (not just you personally, Jim) the same kind of remarks and sermons etc. from Benedict and from John Paul II and you will find them advocating the VERY SAME IDEAS as Francis--CHRIST is our way, and truth, and life --but the media would twist and slant the earlier popes' words to make them seem rigid and stodgy, while with Francis, they are twisting to make him appear warm-fuzzy and Protestant (ie. no trappings, no fancy, nothing but 'me-and-Jesus').

None of the media perceptions for any of our Popes have been accurate 100%, and most often they have been inaccurate close to 100%!
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  #10  
Old Oct 24, '13, 9:37 am
minion minion is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: "the Church is like Mary who brings Jesus and is not a shop or a humanitarian agency"

I suppose I could have been more specific.

What does Pope Francis mean exactly when the Church, or Mary, is not a "shop"?

And later on, he says something along the lines that we should not be going to either for favors.

The implication to me seems to be that we should not be going to the Church, or to Mary for favors. Isn't that one of the points of praying in the first place? Asking for help?

Don't many Churches have a gift shop to buy Catholic sacramentals and books?

Isn't the Church asking for favors every time an usher moves a collection basket in front of me?
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  #11  
Old Oct 24, '13, 3:02 pm
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JimR-OCDS JimR-OCDS is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: "the Church is like Mary who brings Jesus and is not a shop or a humanitarian agency"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tantum ergo View Post
Well, Benedict, John Paul 2, etc didn't bring a DIFFERENT or 'non Christ centered' church to the world, so I fail to understand what the fuss is. There is nothing yet that Francis has said or done regarding TEACHING that Benedict, John Paul 2 etc did NOT say or do..

The ONLY difference is the way that the media is presenting it --which is in presenting Francis' teaching as 'new' or a 'change'.

Go through (not just you personally, Jim) the same kind of remarks and sermons etc. from Benedict and from John Paul II and you will find them advocating the VERY SAME IDEAS as Francis--CHRIST is our way, and truth, and life --but the media would twist and slant the earlier popes' words to make them seem rigid and stodgy, while with Francis, they are twisting to make him appear warm-fuzzy and Protestant (ie. no trappings, no fancy, nothing but 'me-and-Jesus').

None of the media perceptions for any of our Popes have been accurate 100%, and most often they have been inaccurate close to 100%!
Pope Francis is providing context, in that the Church isn't just an institution promoting humanitarian values, but Christ.

Pope John Paul II, and Benedict brought the same message, but Pope John Paul II's was geared to building bridges to those of other religious beliefs, in order that the Church would hear them, but also be able to open the Gospel to them. He was more ecumenical in this respect.

Pope Benedict XVI was Christ centered, but public relations wise, he was a failure and in fact in hist first year, burned the bridges Pope John Paul II had built. Poe Benedict XVI wrote the beautiful three volume set, Jesus of Nazareth, as well as other good books, but it was the devote that purchased and read them. Also, is compromise with SSPX was a failure and probably caused more divisions in the Church than unity. He was also disconnected with ordinary Catholics, which is common of brilliant minds like his, who have spent much of their lives in the higher intellectual circles of the Vatican and Academia. Historians will be the judge on this, but I've already seen some writing about his papacy.

Pope Francis brings the Jesus to the world and does so through his life of humility and service. He connects with ordinary people, because all of his life, he stayed among the people, especially the poor.

FYI, we're called to be obedient to our Popes, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with their policies during their papacy.

Jim
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  #12  
Old Oct 24, '13, 4:14 pm
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: "the Church is like Mary who brings Jesus and is not a shop or a humanitarian agency"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR-OCDS View Post
Pope Francis is providing context, in that the Church isn't just an institution promoting humanitarian values, but Christ.

Pope John Paul II, and Benedict brought the same message, but Pope John Paul II's was geared to building bridges to those of other religious beliefs, in order that the Church would hear them, but also be able to open the Gospel to them. He was more ecumenical in this respect. How then is this different from Pope Francis? So you give Pope John Paul 2 a 'pass' then?

Pope Benedict XVI was Christ centered, but public relations wise, he was a failure and in fact in hist first year, burned the bridges Pope John Paul II had built. I totally disagree. It was not Pope Benedict who caused the problem, but the media. You might be too young to remember, but when John Paul 2 was elected, as a 'Pope from behind the Iron Curtain' and a 'young man' at 58, he had quite the wave of friendly publicity just as Pope Francis is having now. He was all for the 'young people' (of whom I was one at the time, saw him in Boston in '79). But oh, when Pope BENEDICT was elected, from the first second, he was called Nazi and Rottweiler and portrayed as the enemy to 'regular folks'. I suppose it was his 'fault' for having been born in Germany, having been CHOSEN to do the hard and thankless work of helping to defend God's teachings instead of being able to go out and glad hand people and be seen as a fun loving regular guy. Sheesh, even his liking CATS wasn't enough for the media to treat him like a human being instead of a convenient label and target of hate. Poe Benedict XVI wrote the beautiful three volume set, Jesus of Nazareth, as well as other good books, but it was the devote that purchased and read them: 'Says WHO? On your opinion only we are supposed to think Pope Benedict was some kind of ELITIST? . Also, is compromise with SSPX was a failure and probably caused more divisions in the Church than unity. Whereas if Pope Francis reaches out to others it's because HE is kind and merciful. . .,you know, you are really proving my point here, hon! He was also disconnected with ordinary Catholics, Oh give me a break. St, PAUL was a man of brilliant mind, was HE out of touch with ordinary people? Why then do you judge Pope Benedict? Where is your evidence except that this is your opinion?: which is common of brilliant minds like his, who have spent much of their lives in the higher intellectual circles of the Vatican and Academia. Historians will be the judge on this, but I've already seen some writing about his papacy. Historians will be the judge? Oh my word. Historians are by and large in this generation revisionists who paint 'history' according to what their own world view is, and then twist people and events to 'prove' their views.

Pope Francis brings the Jesus to the world and does so through his life of humility and service. He connects with ordinary people, because all of his life, he stayed among the people, especially the poor. Are you claiming that Pope Francis somehow did something radically different from other 20th century Popes? That one can only connect with ordinary if one 'stays with the poor' in a visible way and that because previous Popes didn't drive their own clunker and were unfortunate enough to have the media already hate them, that those Popes weren't as GOOD (as Popes) as Francis has been in the last 6 MONTHS?.

FYI, we're called to be obedient to our Popes, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with their policies during their papacy. Policies? Policies being what? The decision to live where their predecessors lived? To subordinate their own desires because they have responsibilities that they chose to exercise in a way that YOU do not care for??
Jim
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  #13  
Old Oct 24, '13, 4:30 pm
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: "the Church is like Mary who brings Jesus and is not a shop or a humanitarian agency"

I want to make it perfectly clear that I love Pope Francis and do not have any problem whatsoever with his words or actions as Pope.

I do not think that he is 'better than' or 'worse than' his predecessors when it comes to upholding the Church's teaching. I don't think that Pope Benedict or Pope John Paul 2 etc. did wrongly by, say, reaching out for ecumenism and clarifying the teaching on the Church not having authority to ordain women (John Paul 2) or issuing the Moto Proprio and calling for a Year of Faith and working to bring about a meaningful liturgy for both OF and EF (Benedict). I don't think that Francis is doing wrongly by reiterating the call that these two other modern Popes, as well as many others, have made in calling us to center ourselves around JESUS, in the off-the-cuff and personal style that he has.

What I object to is the assumption or implication that Pope Francis is doing MORE because of some of his personal decisions in how to live HIS life to bring people to the Church, and that those who came before him and lived according to THEIR personal decisions, did LESS.
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Old Oct 24, '13, 5:51 pm
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Default Re: Pope Francis: "the Church is like Mary who brings Jesus and is not a shop or a humanitarian agency"

You quoted my post within your response, which makes responding near impossible without a lot of copy and pasting.

Anyway, but on one point, it wasn't the media who made statements about Muslims which caused nuns in Bethlehem to be murdered, and put Christians living in hostile areas of the world fearing for their lives. It was the 13th century quote about Islam which he made without out considering how it would inflame Muslims and how it put people's lives in jeopardy.

There are other statements he made, which although correct, the way and timing were wrong. It burnt down the bridges Pope John Paul II had made.

BTW, I'm 62 years old, I remember when Pope John Paul II was elected and he's my favorite Pope to date, followed by Pope John XIII and Pope Francis.

Pope Benedict XVI, a good and great theologian, but not my favorite Pope.

Jim
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Old Oct 24, '13, 6:32 pm
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: Pope Francis: "the Church is like Mary who brings Jesus and is not a shop or a humanitarian agency"

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Originally Posted by JimR-OCDS View Post
You quoted my post within your response, which makes responding near impossible without a lot of copy and pasting.

Anyway, but on one point, it wasn't the media who made statements about Muslims which caused nuns in Bethlehem to be murdered, and put Christians living in hostile areas of the world fearing for their lives. It was the 13th century quote about Islam which he made without out considering how it would inflame Muslims and how it put people's lives in jeopardy.

There are other statements he made, which although correct, the way and timing were wrong. It burnt down the bridges Pope John Paul II had made.

BTW, I'm 62 years old, I remember when Pope John Paul II was elected and he's my favorite Pope to date, followed by Pope John XIII and Pope Francis.



Pope Benedict XVI, a good and great theologian, but not my favorite Pope.

Jim
Jim, it's perfectly all right that he's not your favorite Pope, but if you are trying to claim that Pope Benedict's quote was responsible for Muslims murdering nuns, and 'burning of bridges', I respectfully disagree with you. In fact, I disagree with virtually all the conclusions that you have drawn based upon what I believe are misperceptions you have made and are making about Pope Benedict. . .perhaps because he is not a 'favorite' of yours.

Even the praises you give him (not just on this thread) are faint and followed usually by something on the order of, "sure he's brilliant but OF COURSE that means he's not understood by most ordinary folk". . .as if the being brilliant was a fault in itself.

But lest we hijack (unintentionally) the thread, let's go back to the topic at hand. . .I do find Pope Francis to be an exciting speaker and as I have often said, NOT to be saying anything contradictory to Catholic teaching.

I do like him personally, but the only anxiety (and it's not even really an anxiety so much as a faint worry) I have with his speeches is that so often what he said can be seen in ambiguous terms. Perhaps part of that is his Spanish-speaking background and his cultural roots giving him more a fluidity of speech; perhaps some is his Jesuit background. But it does appear that quite often one has to go far more into depth and exploration of the context not only of what Pope Francis says on a subject, but on the Church's historical teaching, to understand exactly what he says.

You might have thought that Benedict sounded too 'intellectual', but I (my own opinion here) found that he was crystal clear in that what he said was very well known (at least from this Baltimore Catechism educated gal) and articulated over some 20 centuries (with adjustments so that we are not speakething in ye olde dialect). With Francis, I find myself going, "does he really mean what the media says --because at a quick glance like us 'common folk' who don't have all kinds of edumacation and rely on the 7th grade reading level that this country has deemed appropriate for communication to the average adult--it often LOOKS as though Francis is saying something a little different from what the Church has been saying.

Then again, when one digs deeper, reads the whole story instead of sound bites, checks around based on the 'Jesuit world view'. . .one says, "OK, yes, Francis didn't say that focusing on abortion was not important, he didn't change the focus of Catholic teaching regarding abortion, the media is wrong'.

I actually don't think that Pope Francis is making it easier for the 'ordinary Catholic' to hear the gospel (as though the 'intelligentsia in the Vatican is 'chaining down the Bible' and making the word inaccessible). I think that he is a solid man, finding his voice, and that he will make some missteps as he does so and also find some really wonderful 'steps forward' as well. . .but he is NOT like Mr. Rogers making 'the neighborhood' aware, in simple phrases, all about God after the people had had to put up with Stephen Hawking going all cosmic and 'high-flown' for years before.

Finally, Benedict wasn't doing things 'all wrong' and now Francis is doing things 'all right'. . .(YOU did not say or imply that, but a host of those in the media are saying this --and the 'ordinary Catholic' is far more likely to start believing what is drilled into his ears by those good folks in the media, especially when Catholics come along and support them, even if what they are told is based on slant and bias and artificially 'elevating' one Pope's 'style' over another instead of seeing both styles as authentic and valid choices.)

What Francis says here makes perfect sense when it is carefully examined in light of Church teaching. . .but when it 'stands alone', it can be made to appear as something other than what he really said.
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