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  #1  
Old Nov 16, '05, 6:26 pm
Andrew_11 Andrew_11 is offline
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Default paraplegics being denied marrige (i cant spell)

I just read a thread in the ask an apologist section ( http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85386 ) the apologist said that a if a parplegic (actually anyone) who was impotent would be denied marrige because they could not connsumate the marrige, which the apologist claimed was necessarry. My point is this, Mary and Joseph never connsumated their marrige, why would a person who was not able to consummate a marrige be denied, it would be the same as a couple who decided not to consummate a marrige (as Mary and Joseph did).
  #2  
Old Nov 16, '05, 6:50 pm
Nonie Nonie is offline
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Default Re: paraplegics being denied marrige (i cant spell)

Wow, this is really odd. Talk about discrimination against those with a disability! So If I understand this correctly, if you have this disability the Church will not recognize your marriage??!!! That is terrible!!! Hope someone posts about this who has some more info.
Thanks for posting this Andrew,
Nonie
  #3  
Old Nov 16, '05, 6:54 pm
Andrew_11 Andrew_11 is offline
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Default Re: paraplegics being denied marrige (i cant spell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonie
Wow, this is really odd. Talk about discrimination against those with a disability! So If I understand this correctly, if you have this disability the Church will not recognize your marriage??!!! That is terrible!!! Hope someone posts about this who has some more info.
Thanks for posting this Andrew,
Nonie
No, you had a little misunderstanding, the reason was not that they were a paraplegic, it was that they were unable to consummate the marrige. Read the whole post and the thread in ask an apologist. I do however agree with you that this is discrimination. I have never really questioned a church teaching, but im questioning this one.
  #4  
Old Nov 16, '05, 6:56 pm
Heart Of Mary Heart Of Mary is offline
 
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Default Re: paraplegics being denied marrige (i cant spell)

There have been previous posts about how to be intimate with a spouse WITHOUT sexual intercourse in this forum wihich explained quite well that there ARE alternatives (I believe that it was in context of NFP and ways to be intimate without becoming pregnant). I see no good reason (ok - I know that is asking for trouble when there will be a quote from the catechism and the previous post's link to the same question) why anyone can't get married even if they are not capable of intercourse. I thought being open to children is what counts. It is up to God if he will bless a couple with children - not man. To say that this couple cannot get married is the same as saying marriage is only really about sex....How sad that someone could make that kind of judgement on another. I know a couple where she was a quadraplegic and they could not have "intercourse" per se...Well, she DID get pregnant (yep - his little soldiers made their way to where they needed to be - no intercourse). It sounds more like an attempt to allow only the "perfect people" access to human intimacy with the blessing of marriage....that is just WRONG.

HOM
  #5  
Old Nov 16, '05, 6:56 pm
JimG JimG is online now
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Default Re: paraplegics being denied marrige (i cant spell)

Impotence is an impediment to marriage. The permanent and incurable physical inability of either party to consummate the marriage means that there can be no marriage, because there is no possibility of marital relations.

A couple may, for sufficient reason, mutually decide not to have marital relations, but there must still be the physical capacity to do so.

  #6  
Old Nov 16, '05, 6:59 pm
Andrew_11 Andrew_11 is offline
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Default Re: paraplegics being denied marrige (i cant spell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimG
Impotence is an impediment to marriage. The permanent and incurable physical inability of either party to consummate the marriage means that there can be no marriage, because there is no possibility of marital relations.

A couple may, for sufficient reason, mutually decide not to have marital relations, but there must still be the physical capacity to do so.

I dont see a good reason why an impotent couple cannot marry, they could love each other, and even adopt and raise a child.
  #7  
Old Nov 16, '05, 7:01 pm
Andrew_11 Andrew_11 is offline
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Default Re: paraplegics being denied marrige (i cant spell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heart Of Mary
To say that this couple cannot get married is the same as saying marriage is only really about sex....
You make a great point, this degrades marriage to nothing but sex.
  #8  
Old Nov 16, '05, 7:07 pm
JimG JimG is online now
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Default Re: paraplegics being denied marrige (i cant spell)

You can read what Aquinas says about it here. I didn't read through the whole article. I think the idea is that man and woman, when married, in a sense "owe" their bodies to each other for the purpose of marital relations. Aquinas calls this "the marital debt." One is not allowed to incur the marital debt if one has no way of paying it.
  #9  
Old Nov 16, '05, 7:11 pm
JimG JimG is online now
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Default Re: paraplegics being denied marrige (i cant spell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew_11
I dont see a good reason why an impotent couple cannot marry, they could love each other, and even adopt and raise a child.
Yes, but gay couples make the same argument. Marriage is not only about sex. But marital relations is the way in which the marriage covenant is ratified and renewed.
  #10  
Old Nov 16, '05, 7:13 pm
Andrew_11 Andrew_11 is offline
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Default Re: paraplegics being denied marrige (i cant spell)

As a Catholic, am I bound to believe that paraplegics cannot marry, can this rule be changed?
  #11  
Old Nov 16, '05, 7:25 pm
JimG JimG is online now
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Default Re: paraplegics being denied marrige (i cant spell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew_11
As a Catholic, am I bound to believe that paraplegics cannot marry, can this rule be changed?
I'm not sure if this is just canon law, or if it is considered unchangeable, because it goes to the heart of the nature of marriage.

(PS--the rule says nothing whatever about paraplegics, only about the ability or inability to physically consummate a marriage. Not all paraplegics are permanently impotent.)
  #12  
Old Nov 16, '05, 7:30 pm
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lifeisbeautiful lifeisbeautiful is offline
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Default Re: paraplegics being denied marrige (i cant spell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heart Of Mary
There have been previous posts about how to be intimate with a spouse WITHOUT sexual intercourse in this forum wihich explained quite well that there ARE alternatives (I believe that it was in context of NFP and ways to be intimate without becoming pregnant). I see no good reason (ok - I know that is asking for trouble when there will be a quote from the catechism and the previous post's link to the same question) why anyone can't get married even if they are not capable of intercourse. I thought being open to children is what counts. It is up to God if he will bless a couple with children - not man. To say that this couple cannot get married is the same as saying marriage is only really about sex....How sad that someone could make that kind of judgement on another. I know a couple where she was a quadraplegic and they could not have "intercourse" per se...Well, she DID get pregnant (yep - his little soldiers made their way to where they needed to be - no intercourse). It sounds more like an attempt to allow only the "perfect people" access to human intimacy with the blessing of marriage....that is just WRONG.

HOM
JimG said it right.
I don't have much time to get into this tonight, but
- there is no way to reach the unitive and procreative aspects of the marital embrace without intercourse. Furthermore, when using NFP the couple has to be careful with what they do since some levels of intimacy are only ok as part of the marital embrace. Also, there is no other physical way to reach the level of intimacy/unity that is part of the marital embrace.
- If the quadraplegic couple was able to get pregnant then it sounds like they were either able to have intercourse or they made use of some method that is not moral.
- Consider this analogy I have heard: Would you consider the fact that blind people aren't allowed to drive an attempt to allow only the "perfect people" have access to driving their own vehicle?

Last edited by lifeisbeautiful; Nov 16, '05 at 7:46 pm.
  #13  
Old Nov 16, '05, 7:32 pm
Andrew_11 Andrew_11 is offline
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Default Re: paraplegics being denied marrige (i cant spell)

Well, im goin to hit the sack now, but this has been an interesting conversation and Jim G has made some good points, and now im not sure which way im leaning, but as a traditional Catholic, I will give the Church the benifit of the doubt until it is proven otherwise. I always find that if I dont agree with a Church teaching at first, when I do some research about its reasoning, I understand why it is and accept it. Thanks to everyone who contributed.
  #14  
Old Nov 16, '05, 7:39 pm
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Ana Ana is offline
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Default Re: paraplegics being denied marrige (i cant spell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimG
Yes, but gay couples make the same argument. Marriage is not only about sex. But marital relations is the way in which the marriage covenant is ratified and renewed.
Wow! I did not even come close to making that connection, until you pointed it out. I don't know how I missed it.
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  #15  
Old Nov 16, '05, 8:01 pm
Petergee Petergee is offline
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Default Re: paraplegics being denied marrige (i cant spell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew_11
No, you had a little misunderstanding, the reason was not that they were a paraplegic, it was that they were unable to consummate the marrige. Read the whole post and the thread in ask an apologist. I do however agree with you that this is discrimination. I have never really questioned a church teaching, but im questioning this one.
Of course it's discrimination. Contrary to the line pushed by the mainstream media, not all discrimination is bad. Discrimination can often be a good thing. NOT to discriminate can sometimes be a sin. The Church discriminates all the time in deciding whether a person is a suitable candidate to receive one or other Sacrament.
And as the marriage of the Virgin Mary and St Joseph wasn't a Sacrament of the Catholic Church, they didn't have to obey the Church's rules regarding the Sacrament of Marriage. Especially as St Joseph apparently died before the Church was founded.

Btw I understand that contrary to common opinion, the great majority of paraplegics CAN have sexual intercourse.
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