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  #1  
Old Nov 20, '05, 1:22 am
anthony flavell anthony flavell is offline
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Default Did people go to heaven before Christ?

Some people were able to enter heaven before Christ, Moses is the perfect example as he appeared with Elijah on the mount. We know he was in heaven because he was with Elijah and Elijah was assumed into heaven.

Moses was not baptized, did not know of Christ and was not assumed. If people were able to enter the kingdom before Christ ‘paid a ransom for our sins” why was the crucifixion necessary?
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  #2  
Old Nov 20, '05, 1:55 am
Shidoran Shidoran is offline
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Default Re: Did people go to heaven before Christ?

I think a subject like this can be either treated simply, or it can become a deep subject. I'll try to keep this simple, and as the way I believe it.

We know that the Lord took Moses, before he went to the promised land. We also know, as the Lord said to cornelius, Do not call what the Lord has cleansed unclean.

Without trying to be contreversial, there may be no record of Moses being baptised in the bible, but to say, with all certainty, that he was not baptised, may be an incorrect assumption. Perhaps this is something to think about.

We do know that the bible doesn't contain all detail about everything that happened in the times of Jesus, and all the doctrines of the old prophets. It is best not to speculate, and as such, I prefer to not draw conclusions about subjects such as this without evidence either way. Having an open mind about the things of the Lord is important, in my mind.

I'll quote you here: "If people were able to enter the kingdom before Christ ‘paid a ransom for our sins” why was the crucifixion necessary?"

The answer to this is pretty simple.Everyone must be given an equal opportunity to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Just because some did, doesn't mean all could. Christ paid the ransom so that all men, on the condition of repentance, can enter into the kingdom of God, clean from sin.

Hope this answers your question.
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  #3  
Old Nov 20, '05, 2:31 am
Semper Fi Semper Fi is offline
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Default Re: Did people go to heaven before Christ?

Enoch, Moses & Elijah were assumed into Heaven bodily as the BVM was in the NT. I believe that they're the only 3 people that we know of for sure who made it to Heaven before Christ came to complete His perfect sacrifice for all mankind.

In Catholic & Orthodox theology, the main school of thought is that the souls of the deceased went through a waiting period until they were able to be fully cleansed. We can support this belief with a number of passages in the New Testament, but especially with 1 Peter 3:19. In 1 Peter 3:19 Peter talks about Christ going to preach to the spirits in "prison", or Hades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Peter 3:18-19
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
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  #4  
Old Nov 20, '05, 3:05 am
anthony flavell anthony flavell is offline
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Default Re: Did people go to heaven before Christ?

Semper fi,

The OT never states that Moses was asumed
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  #5  
Old Nov 20, '05, 3:17 am
Semper Fi Semper Fi is offline
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Default Re: Did people go to heaven before Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anthony flavell
Semper fi,

The OT never states that Moses was asumed
No, it doesn't 'say' he was, but we can 'assume' he was from Mark 9:4 in the NT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark 9:4
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
God bless,
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  #6  
Old Nov 20, '05, 3:31 am
anthony flavell anthony flavell is offline
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Default Re: Did people go to heaven before Christ?

Semper,

You raise an interesting point that Moses, Elijah and Our Lady were assumed making it only three people who were ever assumed.

If I recall correctly Enoch was also assumed.

This got me to thinking, is it possible that the four living creatures in revelation are in fact these four people?
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  #7  
Old Nov 20, '05, 3:47 am
Semper Fi Semper Fi is offline
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Default Re: Did people go to heaven before Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anthony flavell
Semper,

You raise an interesting point that Moses, Elijah and Our Lady were assumed making it only three people who were ever assumed.

If I recall correctly Enoch was also assumed.

This got me to thinking, is it possible that the four living creatures in revelation are in fact these four people?
Anthony, actually what I meant to say was that Moses, Elijah and Enoch were the only three that we know of from the OT who made it to heaven before Christ died on the cross. Sorry for the confusion.
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  #8  
Old Nov 20, '05, 3:48 am
Semper Fi Semper Fi is offline
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Default Re: Did people go to heaven before Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anthony flavell
This got me to thinking, is it possible that the four living creatures in revelation are in fact these four people?
I'm not sure which verses you're thinking of...
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  #9  
Old Nov 20, '05, 5:56 am
StCsDavid StCsDavid is offline
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Default Re: Did people go to heaven before Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anthony flavell
Semper,

You raise an interesting point that Moses, Elijah and Our Lady were assumed making it only three people who were ever assumed.

If I recall correctly Enoch was also assumed.

This got me to thinking, is it possible that the four living creatures in revelation are in fact these four people?
I haven't seen those guys attributed to the four creatures (Rev 14:3, 15:7, 19:4) The four fellows might be cherubim as we saw in Ezekiel's vision (Ez 1:5-15)

Now Moses and Elijah have been proposed as being the two witnesses in Rev 11:3-14, though a lot of scholars favor the more general identification of the witnesses being The Law and The Prophets.
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  #10  
Old Nov 20, '05, 10:35 am
Matt16_18 Matt16_18 is offline
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Default Re: Did people go to heaven before Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anthony flavell
Some people were able to enter heaven before Christ, Moses is the perfect example as he appeared with Elijah on the mount. We know he was in heaven because he was with Elijah and Elijah was assumed into heaven.
No one entered heaven before Jesus died and resurrected from the dead – Jesus explicitly affirms that this is true:
No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.
John 3:13
The soul of Moses descended to Abraham’s bosom when he died. There he waited for Jesus to open the Gates of Heaven along with the rest of the OT saints. The Gates were opened by the death and resurrection of Jesus.

The Fathers of the Church believed that God took Enoch and Elijah from earth to the Garden of Eden as mortal men (men who still suffered from the stain of original sin on their souls). Enoch and Elijah are waiting in the terrestrial Paradise to return to earth as the two witnesses of the Book of Revelation. Enoch and Elijah will suffer martyrdom in Jerusalem, and they will be raised from the dead by Christ (something that could not happen if Enoch and Elijah already have immortal glorified bodies).

The world will come to an end after Enoch and Elijah are resurrected from the dead, and Enoch and Elijah will receive their glorified bodies at the end of the world. Moses too will receive his glorified body at the end of the world, along with everyone else that will live in the new creation (except Jesus and Mary who already have their glorified bodies).
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  #11  
Old Nov 20, '05, 11:22 am
Sir Knight Sir Knight is offline
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Default Re: Did people go to heaven before Christ?

Catholic church teaching state that Our Lady was assumed into heaven and I know the biblical passage which states that Elijah was assumed into heaven but where does it state, or is taught, that Moses & Enoch were also assumed into heaven?
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  #12  
Old Nov 20, '05, 3:53 pm
Matt16_18 Matt16_18 is offline
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Default Re: Did people go to heaven before Christ?

In some Catholic translations of the Bible, Henoch = Enoch and Elias = Elijah.
... in the last days before the Judgment, the Jews shall believe in the true Christ, that is, our Christ, thanks to this great and admirable prophet Elias who shall expound the Law to them.
(St. Augustine)

"During the three and a half years of Antichrist's reign God will send Henoch and Elias to help the Christians."
(St. Benedict)

For three and a half years [the Antichrist] will hold sway and, at the end of that period, he will put to death Henoch and Elias, who will have previously opposed him by preaching the true faith. Shortly afterwards, Christ will appear, and Antichrist will be killed by Michael the Archangel.
(Adso the Monk, 10th Century)

Elias will cause the rain, dew and snow to cease in those countries where the inhabitants oppose the two prophets and refuse to reject Antichrist. The first land to be so punished will be Palestine in order to win over the Jews. After Elias finds the `Ark of the Covenant' of the Jews, (hidden until the recall of the Jews to God), he and Henoch will place the Blessed Sacrament upon it. The Jews will then realise the Jesus Christ and not Antichrist is the true Messiah. They will desert Antichrist and make a pilgrimage to Mount Nebo (where the Ark is found) bewailing the hardheartedness of their ancestors. Thereafter they will accept the Christian faith. The Antichrist will kill Henoch and Elias and leave them unburied. These will, however, be resurrected after three and one-half days and ascend into heaven in a cloud in the presence of their enemy. This miraculous event will actually confuse Antichrist. In order that the nations will not abandon him, he will lift himself with great majesty into space on Mt. Olivet, with the purported intention to cast down the prophets who have ascended into heaven. But in this moment Christ will strike him down. The earth will open and swallow him and his prophets alive. Then a large part of Jerusalem will fall into ruins from the earthquake."
(Dionysius of Luxemburg)
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  #13  
Old Nov 20, '05, 4:01 pm
Matt16_18 Matt16_18 is offline
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Default Re: Did people go to heaven before Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anthony flavell
Semper fi,

The OT never states that Moses was asumed


The NT has this verse concerning the dead body of Moses:
... the archangel Michael, when he argued with the devil in a dispute over the body of Moses ...
Jude 1:9
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  #14  
Old Nov 20, '05, 4:23 pm
itsjustdave1988 itsjustdave1988 is offline
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Default Re: Did people go to heaven before Christ?

According to St. Thomas Aquinas, no human entered the kingdom of heaven (i.e., the abode of the saints) before Jesus Christ.
Quote:
The holy Fathers, by doing works of justice, merited to enter into the heavenly kingdom, through faith in Christ's Passion, according to Heb. 11:33: The saints "by faith conquered kingdoms, wrought justice," and each of them was thereby cleansed from sin, so far as the cleansing of the individual is concerned. Nevertheless the faith and righteousness of no one of them sufficed for removing the barrier arising from the guilt of the whole human race: but this was removed at the cost of Christ's blood. Consequently, before Christ's Passion no one could enter the kingdom of heaven by obtaining everlasting beatitude, which consists in the full enjoyment of God. (Summa Theologica, III, 49, 5)
As for Enoch and Elias, St. Thomas asserts:
Quote:
Elias was taken up into the atmospheric heaven, but not in to the empyrean heaven, which is the abode of the saints: and likewise Enoch was translated into the earthly paradise, where he is believed to live with Elias until the coming of Antichrist. (ibid).
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