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  #16  
Old Feb 22, '14, 7:54 am
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Porknpie Porknpie is offline
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Default Re: The Bible and Catholic teachings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie Kilbane View Post
Thank you for expounding on this PnP. Your comments are helpful.

As you may (or may not) know, Muslims are instructed to believe in all Divine Revelations - It is one of the six pillars of Islamic faith. From those revelations is what we call the Injeel - or gospel of Jesus -peace be upon him. Others are the Torah of Moses and Psalms of David.

If I may ask, does Catholicism teach that Jesus himself was sent with a Scripture?

I understand that the 4 Gospels include sayings of Jesus, however these are recollections and accounts of his life and works.

Thank you for your consideration.

Katie
Katie,

Per the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 81. This includes both the Old and New Testaments.
"Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit"
The Son, the second person of the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), spoke through the Old Testament scriptures before becoming incarnate. So when Jesus quotes the OT, he is quoting himself, that which God was the author as we believe both the Old and New Testament are the inspired and infallible Word of God.

PnP
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  #17  
Old Feb 22, '14, 8:06 am
Katie Kilbane Katie Kilbane is offline
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Default Re: The Bible and Catholic teachings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porknpie View Post
Katie,

Per the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 81. This includes both the Old and New Testaments.
"Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit"
The Son, the second person of the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), spoke through the Old Testament scriptures before becoming incarnate. So when Jesus quotes the OT, he is quoting himself, that which God was the author as we believe both the Old and New Testament are the inspired and infallible Word of God.

PnP
Oky note taken. Pardon me, but I was totally unaware of this teaching. I'll do the research myself as to how the Catholic Bible OT and NT was collected - if you or anyone else has a link for me on that I would appreciate it. Thanks!
  #18  
Old Feb 22, '14, 8:42 am
pablope pablope is offline
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Default Re: The Bible and Catholic teachings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie Kilbane View Post
Oky note taken. Pardon me, but I was totally unaware of this teaching. I'll do the research myself as to how the Catholic Bible OT and NT was collected - if you or anyone else has a link for me on that I would appreciate it. Thanks!
I thought you already knew how the Bible cam together:

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/...ism/wbible.htm
  #19  
Old Feb 22, '14, 9:05 am
pablope pablope is offline
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Default Re: The Bible and Catholic teachings

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie Kilbane View Post



In Islaam, the truth is the Qur'aan and Sunnah -what Muslims believe to be Divine Revelation revealed directly to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel.
But the Bible gives us a test on how to discern/determine if a spirit is indeed from God.


Quote:


The men who are known by the truth are the companions of Prophet Muhammad - those who lived out their lives next to him over the course of the revelation (23 years) and whoever follows them until the Last day.



I was relating" truth" to Scripture (whether Quran or bible) and "men" - well to men. In the case of Islam they are the pious predeccesors and those who follow them. In the case of Catholicism they are the church fathers and founders of church teachings.
The Early Church Fathers, of ECFs, initially, were the disciples of the 12 apostles themselves, trained and taught by them, and passed on their teachings and authority to them...which they then did the same...and this same passing of teaching and authority is preserved:

From Clement of Rome, disciple of Peter and ordained by Peter, writes in AD90 or so:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...lightfoot.html
1Clem 42:4 So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their firstfruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe.
1Clem 44:2 For this cause therefore, having received complete foreknowledge, they appointed the aforesaid persons, and afterwards they provided a continuance, that if these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed to their ministration.


We call this apostolic succession: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/apostolic-succession

How authority is passed on:

Numbers 27:
18 So the Lord said to Moses, “Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit of leadership,[a] and lay your hand on him. 19 Have him stand before Eleazar the priest and the entire assembly and commission him in their presence.........22 Moses did as the Lord commanded him. He took Joshua and had him stand before Eleazar the priest and the whole assembly. 23 Then he laid his hands on him and commissioned him, as the Lord instructed through Moses.


In the NT:

at Acts 13:
1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.




Quote:
My analogy - although perhaps not a good one - was that in Catholic beliefs, the truth (scripture) is known by men (church fathers, teachings) But since scripture is not the foundation of Catholicism - the church teachings (men i.e. church fathers, church teachings) are not known by the truth (scripture).

You analogy is confusing....

Anyway...the teachings of Christ was handed down to the Apostles and some Apostles wrote something.....then passed on to their disciples/successors....preserved these apsotolic writings........some these disciples wrote what they learned, put it in writings....these successors later selected writings that would comprise the OT and the NT and called it the Bible. The writings that would not make it to the NT are called ECF writings, which expound on the Christian faith.

The Scripture are a reflection of Church teaching....ie..Church teachings explain why Scripture is what it is.
  #20  
Old Feb 22, '14, 9:14 am
Katie Kilbane Katie Kilbane is offline
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Default Re: The Bible and Catholic teachings

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablope View Post
I thought you already knew how the Bible cam together:

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/...ism/wbible.htm
Thanks for the link - I have a basic understanding of the compilation of NT but not much on the OT except that it contains four different versions (Y E P and one more cant remember). And nothing about this bit of info PnP passed along .
  #21  
Old Feb 22, '14, 9:19 am
pablope pablope is offline
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Default Re: The Bible and Catholic teachings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie Kilbane View Post
Thanks for the link - I have a basic understanding of the compilation of NT but not much on the OT except that it contains four different versions (Y E P and one more cant remember). And nothing about this bit of info PnP passed along .
Ok...for the OT...look for the Septuagint and its history, which became the OT.
  #22  
Old Feb 22, '14, 9:33 am
Katie Kilbane Katie Kilbane is offline
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Default Re: The Bible and Catholic teachings

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablope View Post
Ok...for the OT...look for the Septuagint and its history, which became the OT.
Thanks again!
  #23  
Old Feb 22, '14, 9:41 am
Katie Kilbane Katie Kilbane is offline
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Default Re: The Bible and Catholic teachings

Hi -

Looking for Catechism for Kids - Is this a Catholic reliable resource?

http://www.reformed.org/documents/in..._children.html

Thanks!
  #24  
Old Feb 22, '14, 10:04 am
PaulDupre1 PaulDupre1 is offline
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Default Re: The Bible and Catholic teachings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie Kilbane View Post
Hi -

Looking for Catechism for Kids - Is this a Catholic reliable resource?

http://www.reformed.org/documents/in..._children.html

Thanks!
That is a Protestant site, not Catholic. The word "reformed" is the first clue.
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  #25  
Old Feb 22, '14, 11:43 am
Trebor135 Trebor135 is offline
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Default Re: The Bible and Catholic teachings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie Kilbane View Post
Understood. But are you really asking for clarification???
Yes, in fact. We can't continue our discussion if I don't know what your sources of authority are.

Quote:
I mean come on, you already accuse islam of having GAPING HOLES
I say that Islam has "gaping holes" because it indeed suffers from this problem. My charge can be substantiated, something which I have done in your other thread. Are you willing to examine these issues with me?

Quote:
and it is quite apparent that you do not find even a modicum of "truth" in Islaam whatsoever.
Why do you say so? I haven't written that, as it would be factually incorrect to do so.

Quote:
Anyways - I will post for you the beginning of a transcription of an explanation given by one of the erudite scholars of Islaam (words in parentheses are mine to clarify meaning)
Thank you for the link. What I took from it is that Muslims derive their information primarily from written sources and secondarily from Islamic scholars from ca. 700 AD onward.
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  #26  
Old Feb 22, '14, 12:01 pm
DelsonJacobs DelsonJacobs is offline
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Default Re: The Bible and Catholic teachings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie Kilbane View Post
Thank you,

Your reply and all the replies before it - including the links, will be very useful





Sounds like the antithesis of an important Islamic principle with regards to transmitting sacred knowledge: The Truth is not known by men, men are known by the Truth.

Is it safe to say then that an important principle regarding the transmission of the church teachings would be: The church teachings are not known by scripture -Scripture is known by the Church teachings?


.
Actually it depends on the way you are looking at the matter that might be the decision as to whether the Catholic view is contrary to the Islamic principle you quote.

The Church is actually built on Christ and his teachings. It is built on the Messiah, not on any writings or its self. The Apostles were entrusted with Christ's teachings by Jesus himself and they in turn passed these on via various means such as public worship (liturgy), evangelization (oral preaching and catechesis), and in writing. The Sacred Scriptures are therefore but a facet of this entire Deposit of Faith built on Jesus.

Now Christians view Jesus Christ as the Personification of Truth itself. The Scriptures that Catholics honor as God's written revelation reflect this in recording Jesus as saying:

I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life.
--John 14:6.

Being that Christians see their experience with the historical Christ as an Epiphany with God, one can say that we are defined by Christ and not the other way around. Therefore in principle we are defined by the Truth, not the definers of that Truth. Christ brought us the Truth from God, and not the other way around. Christians are therefore those who submit to the Truth who is Christ.

The canon or library of Sacred Scripture came about by a long and detailed process, ending with an official decision by Church authority. In this sense the Church defined what should be in the canon of Scripture.

But the criteria for making this decision includes this submission to the fact that Truth is defined not by the Church but by Christ. Scripture therefore must reflect that Truth, and the long process that led to the official canonization of Sacred Scripture was as extensive as it was due to this realization.

While Scripture is a reflection of what the Church believes and teaches, what the Church believes and teaches originates with Christ and not the Church. The Church did not found Christ who is the Truth, rather Christ who we view as the Truth of God founded the Church.
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