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  #1  
Old Nov 25, '05, 5:35 am
Michael C Michael C is offline
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Default Frank Sinatra & the Catholic Church

Conversation came up at Thanks giving dinner. A relative criticized the Church because Frank Sinatra was allowed to be married 7 times in a Catholic Church. I asked for evidence but was given none. The relative told me if I could prove otherwise he would stand up and apologize at the next gathering.

Does anyone know where I could find out if Mr.Sinatra was married with the Churches blessing on 7 different occasions? Thanks for any help you may be able to provide.

Peace.
  #2  
Old Nov 25, '05, 5:47 am
Karin Karin is offline
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Default Re: Frank Sinatra & the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael C
Conversation came up at Thanks giving dinner. A relative criticized the Church because Frank Sinatra was allowed to be married 7 times in a Catholic Church. I asked for evidence but was given none. The relative told me if I could prove otherwise he would stand up and apologize at the next gathering.

Does anyone know where I could find out if Mr.Sinatra was married with the Churches blessing on 7 different occasions? Thanks for any help you may be able to provide.

Peace.
First he was only married 4 times.(Ava Gardner, Mia Farrow,Nancy Barbato,& Barbara Marx)

He got married to Mia Farrow at the Sands...his first marriage(Nancy) was in the Church and was annulled. HE married Gardner in PA at a friends house. As to the rest of his marriages I do not know.

Last edited by Karin; Nov 25, '05 at 6:01 am.
  #3  
Old Nov 25, '05, 7:31 am
Della Della is offline
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Default Re: Frank Sinatra & the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael C
Conversation came up at Thanks giving dinner. A relative criticized the Church because Frank Sinatra was allowed to be married 7 times in a Catholic Church. I asked for evidence but was given none. The relative told me if I could prove otherwise he would stand up and apologize at the next gathering.

Does anyone know where I could find out if Mr.Sinatra was married with the Churches blessing on 7 different occasions? Thanks for any help you may be able to provide.

Peace.
How typical. This relative makes a slanderous comment as if it were fact and then when called on it tries to shift the whole thing onto you by saying that YOU have to find the proof. The onus of proving a claim falls on whoever makes it not on the person who was challenged by it.

But, finding proof that Sinatra or anyone else's marriage(s) were sacramental or not might be impossible to prove. That's not the kind of information a secular biographer or journalist is likely to record. If Sinatra's marriages were all sanctioned by the Church, his diocese would have the records, but they would be very unlikely to give them out to the public. If he didn't have a Catholic priest or deacon witness his wedding vows with any of the women he married after he got his annulment, then none of those marriages were sacramental.

And his having a church funeral and burial would have depended on his priest or his bishop. The Vatican rarely overrules its bishops in such matters but trusts that they are doing what is proper under the circumstances. In any case, simply throwing out an accusation is not proof nor does it make any comment or opinion the truth. You should remind you relative of that little fact.
  #4  
Old Nov 25, '05, 8:37 am
Kay Cee Kay Cee is offline
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Default Re: Frank Sinatra & the Catholic Church

Apparently your friend believes in "Guilty until proven innocent."
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  #5  
Old Nov 25, '05, 9:06 am
Arlene Arlene is offline
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Default Re: Frank Sinatra & the Catholic Church

Tell your relative that if he is going to put the Catholic Church on trial, then he should understand that in a trial the burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defense.

Can he prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt? Or should his case be thrown out for lack of evidence?
  #6  
Old Nov 25, '05, 9:21 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Frank Sinatra & the Catholic Church

Well today is a slow day... soooo....

Marriage #1: Nancy - in the Church, married 1939, divorced 1951

Marriage #2: Ava- married 10 days after his divorce was final from Nancy. Ava was twice divorced prior to marrying Frank. Married 1951, separated 1953, divorced 1957.

Marriage #3: Mia- married in 1966 in the Sand's hotel w/o annulment. Divorced in 1968.

Marriage #4: Barbara Marx- 1976. She converted to Catholicism to marry him.

His first marriage was annuled. His second and third were invalid due to lack of form. Then, his last marriage was apparently in the church.

If you want sources, I googled a couple of combinations including "frank sinatra barbara marx marriage", "frank sinatra annulment", "frank nancy sinatra marriage", "frank sinatra catholic marriage".

Have fun looking some of this up online-- maybe a Sinatra biography would have more info.
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Pax, ke

ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
  #7  
Old Nov 25, '05, 9:28 am
Michael C Michael C is offline
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Default Re: Frank Sinatra & the Catholic Church

I really appreciate the help. I have a habit of challenging people when they throw out inuendos, misunderstandings and rumors as facts about the Church I love. I did put him on the spot and he will squirm further Christmas Eve when he has to apologize.
  #8  
Old Nov 25, '05, 10:04 am
Al Masetti Al Masetti is offline
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Default Re: Frank Sinatra & the Catholic Church

Whoa.

I guess he really did do it his way.

P.S. Someone asked the same question about Tony Mottola... third marriage in the Church.
  #9  
Old Nov 25, '05, 10:37 am
Kay Cee Kay Cee is offline
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Default Re: Frank Sinatra & the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke
Well today is a slow day... soooo....

Marriage #1: Nancy - in the Church, married 1939, divorced 1951

Marriage #2: Ava- married 10 days after his divorce was final from Nancy. Ava was twice divorced prior to marrying Frank. Married 1951, separated 1953, divorced 1957.

Marriage #3: Mia- married in 1966 in the Sand's hotel w/o annulment. Divorced in 1968.

Marriage #4: Barbara Marx- 1976. She converted to Catholicism to marry him.

His first marriage was annuled. His second and third were invalid due to lack of form. Then, his last marriage was apparently in the church.

If you want sources, I googled a couple of combinations including "frank sinatra barbara marx marriage", "frank sinatra annulment", "frank nancy sinatra marriage", "frank sinatra catholic marriage".

Have fun looking some of this up online-- maybe a Sinatra biography would have more info.
If I were going to explain this to somebody, I would first point out there is a difference between civil law and canon law. What is valid under one may not be valid under another.

That's how I managed to explain divorce, annulment, and re-marriage to a pair of my Protestant friends.
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  #10  
Old Nov 25, '05, 10:51 am
SPOKENWORD SPOKENWORD is offline
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Default Re: Frank Sinatra & the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kay Cee
If I were going to explain this to somebody, I would first point out there is a difference between civil law and canon law. What is valid under one may not be valid under another.

That's how I managed to explain divorce, annulment, and re-marriage to a pair of my Protestant friends.
As Frank would say "I did it my way''.,because it doesn,t count. God Bless
  #11  
Old Nov 25, '05, 11:34 am
Kay Cee Kay Cee is offline
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Default Re: Frank Sinatra & the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPOKENWORD
As Frank would say "I did it my way''.,because it doesn,t count. God Bless
Because what doesn't count? Could you be more clear?
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  #12  
Old Nov 25, '05, 11:48 am
SPOKENWORD SPOKENWORD is offline
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Default Re: Frank Sinatra & the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kay Cee
Because what doesn't count? Could you be more clear?
His marriges by the law of the land. God Bless
  #13  
Old Nov 25, '05, 12:40 pm
Michael C Michael C is offline
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Default Re: Frank Sinatra & the Catholic Church

I think my wifes uncle was trying to make the point that because Frank Sinatra was famous with money he received special treatment. he was allowed to be married 7 times on the altar with no problem.

Today I learned he was wrong. he was married 4 times. the first was annulled. The next to were invalid and not recognized by the Church and the last one was valid because his wife converted.

He wasn't married in a church 7 times. The first time he was, the second time was at a private home and the thrid was at the Sands. The fourth I have no ide where but it probably was in a Catholic church validly.

Before the meal prayer I'll have him apologize loudly.
  #14  
Old Nov 25, '05, 1:12 pm
Kay Cee Kay Cee is offline
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Default Re: Frank Sinatra & the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPOKENWORD
His marriges by the law of the land. God Bless
Well, that depends on what you mean.

Under civil law, of course his marriages count.

Under canon law, a covenant must exist for a marriage to exist. No covenant, no marriage. If there was no covenant in the first three weddings, then under canon law, those were not marriages. That doesn't mean they weren't marriages under civil law.

Look at it this way:

Suppose there are two countries. Country X and Country Y. Let's say that in Country X, you have to be 21 to get married. Furthermore, Country X only recognizes those marriages that occur according to their law.

Now suppose a young man and a young woman from Country Y get married at age 18. Under Country Y's law, they are married. Under Country X's law they are not.

When it comes to civil and canon law, you must remember that these are two different systems of law. What is legal for one may not be legal for the other.
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  #15  
Old Nov 25, '05, 2:47 pm
barsapp barsapp is offline
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Default Re: Frank Sinatra & the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael C
... and the last one was valid because his wife converted.
was really necessary her conversion to Catholicism to have a valid marriage? i don't think so.
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