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  #1  
Old Nov 28, '05, 7:22 am
slewi slewi is offline
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Default Hands inthe orante position

Does the orante position have the arms bent at the elbow, palms almost facing each other, thumbs up?

Can anyone tell me when congregations started using this posture during the "Our Father"? And most importantly, WHY?

Steve
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  #2  
Old Nov 28, '05, 8:49 am
Jabronie Jabronie is offline
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Post Re: Hands inthe orante position

I HATE it, as it just seems really protestant to me. There's tons of arguments for and against it on this board, so you might want to do a search.

One of the big reason I'm against it is this: Look where we say The Lord's Prayer. At that point, Jesus Himself is at the altar. Why would we want to hold our hands up toward the sky when our Lord is right there with us at the front of the church?
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  #3  
Old Nov 28, '05, 9:38 am
slewi slewi is offline
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Default Re: Hands inthe orante position

Yeah, I know. I shudder every week at mass.
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  #4  
Old Nov 28, '05, 10:01 am
slewi slewi is offline
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Default Re: Hands inthe orante position

I have found the info on the USCCB site and see that as with many "innovations" the orans posture is neither mandated nor condemned. Incredible.
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Old Nov 28, '05, 11:30 am
Jabronie Jabronie is offline
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Post Re: Hands inthe orante position

Quote:
Originally Posted by slewi
I have found the info on the USCCB site and see that as with many "innovations" the orans posture is neither mandated nor condemned. Incredible.
It always makes me kind of angry when I see the innovations people do (hand holding, etc.) I wish the USCCB would just say "don't do it" already.

What I do it try to during Mass is ignore it and focus on what we're really at church for. Christ in the Eucharist.
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  #6  
Old Nov 28, '05, 11:47 am
YinYangMom YinYangMom is offline
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Default Re: Hands inthe orante position

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabronie
I HATE it, as it just seems really protestant to me. There's tons of arguments for and against it on this board, so you might want to do a search.

One of the big reason I'm against it is this: Look where we say The Lord's Prayer. At that point, Jesus Himself is at the altar. Why would we want to hold our hands up toward the sky when our Lord is right there with us at the front of the church?

Hmm...all this time I thought the people who did that were directing their open arms up and toward the altar before them, not directly to God but toward the altar/crucifix in union with the priest.
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Old Nov 28, '05, 11:58 am
netmilsmom netmilsmom is offline
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Default Re: Hands inthe orante position

If anyone can give me a direction from the Vatican or USCCB for the laity to perform this gesture in the liturgy, I will be surprised.

It's an innovation. Encouraged by some Bishops and discouraged by others.

Hopefully, we will get a clear ruling on it at some point.
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  #8  
Old Nov 28, '05, 12:27 pm
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mosher mosher is offline
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Default Re: Hands inthe orante position

Don't hold your breath as I believe the Vatican expects the Bishops to deal with it themselves as it has already bee laid down by the Holy See that none are to add any innovations or detract from the rubrics of the Liturgy be they laypersons or Bishops apart from the areas provided for flexability in the rubrics themselves. So, in effect the issue has already been addressed in the revision of the GIRM but the Bishops have to grow a spine and inforce them.
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Old Nov 28, '05, 12:31 pm
netmilsmom netmilsmom is offline
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Default Re: Hands inthe orante position

Quote:
Originally Posted by mosher
Don't hold your breath as I believe the Vatican expects the Bishops to deal with it themselves as it has already bee laid down by the Holy See that none are to add any innovations or detract from the rubrics of the Liturgy be they laypersons or Bishops apart from the areas provided for flexability in the rubrics themselves. So, in effect the issue has already been addressed in the revision of the GIRM but the Bishops have to grow a spine and inforce them.
I feel you are exactly correct.
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  #10  
Old Nov 28, '05, 12:36 pm
AltarMan AltarMan is offline
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Default Re: Hands inthe orante position

Quote:
Originally Posted by YinYangMom
Hmm...all this time I thought the people who did that were directing their open arms up and toward the altar before them, not directly to God but toward the altar/crucifix in union with the priest.
I thought they were somehow signalling field goals...
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  #11  
Old Nov 28, '05, 12:45 pm
netmilsmom netmilsmom is offline
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Default Re: Hands inthe orante position

Quote:
Originally Posted by AltarMan
I thought they were somehow signalling field goals...
Shhhhhhh.
You are not allowed to say such things about that prayer position.

I've been smacked around many a time for it.
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  #12  
Old Nov 28, '05, 1:05 pm
YinYangMom YinYangMom is offline
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Default Re: Hands inthe orante position

Quote:
Originally Posted by netmilsmom
If anyone can give me a direction from the Vatican or USCCB for the laity to perform this gesture in the liturgy, I will be surprised.

It's an innovation. Encouraged by some Bishops and discouraged by others.

Hopefully, we will get a clear ruling on it at some point.
May I ask what the harm is in the gesture?
Does it hurt the person making the gesture?
Does it hurt those around the person?
Does it offend the priest?
Does it offend God?

Someone mentioned it seemed so 'protestant' to them...perhaps those who use this gesture are protestant converts to Catholicism...if so, shouldn't we be rejoicing that they found their way home?

Perhaps they have not been told, charitably, yet that it isn't necessary during our Mass? Perhaps over time, as they attend more and more masses where people around them don't use this gesture they'll get the message?

Maybe that's why the Vatican is not ruling on the matter....
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  #13  
Old Nov 28, '05, 1:20 pm
netmilsmom netmilsmom is offline
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Default Re: Hands inthe orante position

Quote:
Originally Posted by YinYangMom
May I ask what the harm is in the gesture?
Does it hurt the person making the gesture?
Does it hurt those around the person?
Does it offend the priest?
Does it offend God?

Someone mentioned it seemed so 'protestant' to them...perhaps those who use this gesture are protestant converts to Catholicism...if so, shouldn't we be rejoicing that they found their way home?

Maybe that's why the Vatican is not ruling on the matter....
Actually, the Vatican has stated that this is priestly gesture. Do a search and you will find many of the documents...
"This is repeatedly made clear in the Church’s liturgical documents. For example, the Ceremonial of Bishops notes: "Customarily in the Church a bishop or presbyter addresses prayers to God while standing with hands slightly raised and outstretched" (CB 104).

Similarly, in the Book of Blessings, whenever there is a blessing which can be performed either by a member of the clergy or the laity, the rubrics invariably directs that "A minister who is a priest or deacon says the prayer of blessing with hands outstretched; a lay minister says the prayer with hands joined" (BB 1999). Over and over again, the rubrics direct clergy to pray with hands outstretched and laity with hands joined.

Because of the special association praying with hands outstretched has with priestly office, some dissident elements in the Church have desired to get the laity into the habit of praying in this posture during Mass. This furthers the dissident agenda of continuing to blur the line between the laity and the clergy.

Fortunately, the recent Instruction on Collaboration (Nov. 13, 1997) drew the line on this issue and specifically mandated that "Neither may . . . non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the . . . priest celebrant" (ICP, Practical Provisions 6 §2).

The reference to gestures that are appropriate to the priest celebrating the Mass certainly includes praying with arms outstretched, which is probably the single most frequent gesture the rubrics direct him to make during Mass and which is clearly tied to the office of priest in the Church’s liturgical documents.

Consequently, in the liturgy, laity should not be praying with hands outstretched. "


It has never stated that it is a gesture for the laity in the liturgy. If you can find that directive that the Vatican has given for the Orans in the liturgy, I would greatly appreciate it.
So to answer your questions....
The harm in the gesture is confusing the role of the priest in the mass
It does not harm the person making the gesture short of confusing the priestly role.
It may harm the persons around one. It certainly distracts me and my children.
I'm not sure if it offends every Priest but you do not know that it does not.
Because I know that the Will of God is given to us by the Vatican and the Vatican directs priests to use this gesture in the liturgy, I will stay on the safe side and fold my hands.
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Old Nov 28, '05, 1:34 pm
YinYangMom YinYangMom is offline
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Default Re: Hands inthe orante position

Quote:
Originally Posted by netmilsmom

Consequently, in the liturgy, laity should not be praying with hands outstretched.
So where is that statement found again? I missed the reference.
Does it say never? or is it specifying certain parts of the liturgy where they laity should not be praying with hands outstretched.
Just looking for clarification and making sure the statement is repeated her in context.

nevermind...I see it now and will look it up myself. Thanks!


Quote:
It has never stated that it is a gesture for the laity in the liturgy. If you can find that directive that the Vatican has given for the Orans in the liturgy, I would greatly appreciate it
My point was I wouldn't expect the Vatican to address it one way or another since it isn't offensive. Most of what I've read about the Liturgy is written specifically for those responsible for the Mass itself. So naturally, everything in there pertains to them as leaders. I haven't really seen a handbook for the laity, come to think of it. Does one exist?

Quote:
So to answer your questions....
The harm in the gesture is confusing the role of the priest in the mass
It does not harm the person making the gesture short of confusing the priestly role.
It may harm the persons around one. It certainly distracts me and my children.
I'm not sure if it offends every Priest but you do not know that it does not.
Because I know that the Will of God is given to us by the Vatican and the Vatican directs priests to use this gesture in the liturgy, I will stay on the safe side and fold my hands.
Except that I was asking if perhaps people doing this gesture were ex-Protestants who just don't know it's not supposed to be done in our liturgy.

I'm also not suggesting in any way that everybody start using the gesture. I would not be comfortable with it since it isn't how I was raised. But these people who use it seem to be people who are deep in prayer at that moment, offering themselves to the Lord at that moment. How could that be offensive or distracting? (distracting is when the people reach over to me to hold my hand...but what they do for themselves is their personal prayer posture, imo).
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  #15  
Old Nov 28, '05, 1:50 pm
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Default Re: Hands inthe orante position

Quote:
Originally Posted by YinYangMom
I'm also not suggesting in any way that everybody start using the gesture. I would not be comfortable with it since it isn't how I was raised. But these people who use it seem to be people who are deep in prayer at that moment, offering themselves to the Lord at that moment. How could that be offensive or distracting?
It is nevertheless somehow distracting to me, even though it shouldn't be. I look up and 35 people in front of me are doing it and I am not. It makes me uncomfortable somehow, to be the oddball. But it would make me even more uncomfortable to execute the gesture, as I have never done it before. BTW I know those 35 people are not all converts. I think in our parish it has reached large enough levels that people are just doing it out of imitation.

(no, I haven't really been distracted enough to count them...that is just my rough estimate).
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