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  #1  
Old Jul 22, '04, 3:00 pm
Boyk Boyk is offline
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Default Catholic or Protestant proof???

I received this forward from a Protestant friend. It has a good message and shows how perfect the bible is statistically. I would like to know if this would support the Catholic claim including the ENTIRE bible, (Tobit, Sirach, Daniel 13, etc) books/chapters that were removed during the Reformation. If it does, it would be a great way to evangelize to my friend how perfect the bible was BEFORE the reformation. If not then well...
Does anyone know of a way besides counting every single chapter that I can validate this forward's accuracy? Thanks.

Q: What is the shortest chapter in the Bible?
> A: Psalms 117 >
> Q: What is the longest chapter in the Bible?
> A: Psalms 119 >
> Q: Which chapter is in the center of the Bible?
> A: Psalms 118 >
> Fact: There are 594 chapters before Psalms 118
> Fact: There are 594 chapters after Psalms 118
> Add these numbers up and you get 1188. >
> Q: What is the center verse in the Bible?
> A: Psalms 118:8 >
> Does this verse say something significant about God's perfect will for our lives?
> The next time someone says they would like to find God's perfect will for their lives and that they want to be in the center of His will, just send them to the center of His Word! >
> Psalms 118:8 - "It is better to trust in the LORD than to put
confidence in man."
> Now isn't that odd how this worked out (or was God in the center of it)?
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  #2  
Old Jul 22, '04, 3:17 pm
threej_lc threej_lc is offline
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Default Re: Catholic or Protestant proof???

Check out http://www.snopes.com/religion/center.htm
Hope that helps!
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  #3  
Old Jul 22, '04, 3:19 pm
Della Della is offline
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Default Re: Catholic or Protestant proof???

You are right that this leaves out the Deuterocanical books of the OT, so it is a load of nonsense.

Anyone who bases how one is to believe on such manipulations of the Holy Bible is engaging in superstition and not faith.

You should tell you friend that the books of the OT were not finalized in the canon until the Council of Trent, however this does not mean that the Church did not accept the Deuterocanicals until then. It merely means that the Church had not seen any reason to finalize the canon until Luther and others decided to toss out these books from the OT.

Here is an article that may help you: Scripture.
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  #4  
Old Jul 22, '04, 3:26 pm
theMutant theMutant is offline
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Default Re: Catholic or Protestant proof???

Ah, but does it use the contemporary numbering of the Psalms or that in the Greek (Septuagint) which the Vulgate also follows? In the latter case, what is now commonly referred to as Psalm 118 is Psalm 117.
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  #5  
Old Jul 22, '04, 4:11 pm
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Katholish Katholish is offline
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Default Re: Catholic or Protestant proof???

PLease do not tell them that the Old Testament wasn't canonized until the Council of Trent because it isn't true.

The Decree of Pope Damasus and the Council of Rome (382):
Quote:
It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun. The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), one book; Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book. Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books. Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament. Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Part 1 (continued)
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  #6  
Old Jul 22, '04, 4:11 pm
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Katholish Katholish is offline
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Default Re: Catholic or Protestant proof???

Part 2

The Third Council of Carthage, 397:
Quote:
Canon 24. Besides the canonical Scriptures, nothing shall be read in church under the name of divine Scriptures. Moreover, the canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the four books of the Kings,(a) the two books of Chronicles, Job, the Psalms of David, five books of Solomon,(b) the book of the Twelve [minor] Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, the two books of Ezra,(c) and the two books of the Maccabees. The books of the New Testament: the Gospels, four books; the Acts of the Apostles, one book; the epistles of the apostle Paul, thirteen; of the same to the Hebrews, one epistle; of Peter, two; of John the apostle, three; of James, one; of Jude, one; the Revelation of John. Concerning the confirmation of this canon, the Church across the sea shall be consulted. On the anniversaries of martyrs, their acts shall also be read.(d)
Session 11 of the Ecumenical Council of Florence (1442):
Quote:
Five books of Moses, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, Esdras, Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Job, Psalms of David, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, namely Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi; two books of the Maccabees; the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; fourteen letters of Paul, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, two to the Thessalonians, to the Colossians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two letters of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; Acts of the Apostles; Apocalypse of John.
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  #7  
Old Jul 22, '04, 4:23 pm
Della Della is offline
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Default Re: Catholic or Protestant proof???

Katholish wrote:
Quote:
PLease do not tell them that the Old Testament wasn't canonized until the Council of Trent because it isn't true.
I didn't say that. I said it was finalized at the Council of Trent, which it was. After the Council of Trent there could be no more dispute about the canon or parts of the canon.
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  #8  
Old Jul 22, '04, 4:29 pm
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Katholish Katholish is offline
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Default Re: Catholic or Protestant proof???

And you would say that there could be dispute after the declaration of the Ecumenical Council of Florence?
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  #9  
Old Jul 22, '04, 10:51 pm
Della Della is offline
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Default Re: Catholic or Protestant proof???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katholish
And you would say that there could be dispute after the declaration of the Ecumenical Council of Florence?
Once again, you have put words in my mouth. I meant no more and no less than I stated.
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  #10  
Old Jul 22, '04, 11:25 pm
bengal_fan bengal_fan is offline
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Default Re: Catholic or Protestant proof???

either way it is silly to say that one verse is more important than another. "all scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness." the books were not written with the chapter and verse in them (they were added much later) so if we are to look at the center it would have to be the center word (and not in english since it wasn't written in that language). i have no idea what the center word is, i will take all the scripture and treat it equally.
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  #11  
Old Jul 23, '04, 12:25 am
Hananiah Hananiah is offline
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Default Re: Catholic or Protestant proof???

The chapter and verse numbers are not in the original Mss. They were put in there by Catholic monks in the Middle Ages. This argument is only so much sophistry.
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