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  #1  
Old Dec 20, '05, 5:22 pm
FelixBlue FelixBlue is offline
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Default Mutual masturbation

Is it a sin for a husband and wife to, as one priest so described it many years ago, "mutually masturbate"? That is, is it a sin for a husband and a wife (who have four children) to bring each other to an orgasm without the man entering the woman? If it is a sin, is it a mortal sin? If it is a mortal (or venial) sin, do the husband and wife place themselves in an occasion of sin when they have decided to "space their children", and yet sleep together, knowing they may not "engage"? Should the husband sleep on the floor?
  #2  
Old Dec 20, '05, 5:31 pm
mumto5 mumto5 is offline
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Default Re: Mutual masturbation

Yes, it's a mortal sin. Orgasm must take place, at least for the man, where it can lend itself to procreation if that is God's will.
  #3  
Old Dec 20, '05, 8:07 pm
awfulthings9 awfulthings9 is offline
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Default Re: Mutual masturbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixBlue
Is it a sin for a husband and wife to, as one priest so described it many years ago, "mutually masturbate"? That is, is it a sin for a husband and a wife (who have four children) to bring each other to an orgasm without the man entering the woman? If it is a sin, is it a mortal sin? If it is a mortal (or venial) sin, do the husband and wife place themselves in an occasion of sin when they have decided to "space their children", and yet sleep together, knowing they may not "engage"? Should the husband sleep on the floor?
The "sleeping together" part is metaphorical. There is no sin in a husband and wife sharing a bed while abstaining from sex. Stimulation to climax is permissable on the wife if, and only if, it is a prelude to actual intercourse, such as in the case where she cannot reach orgasm that way. Sorry. I know it's tough. I mean, I reeeally know it's tough, but through God's grace and perserverance, it becomes less tough.
  #4  
Old Dec 20, '05, 10:04 pm
marcadam marcadam is offline
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Default Re: Mutual masturbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by awfulthings9
Stimulation to climax is permissable on the wife if, and only if, it is a prelude to actual intercourse, such as in the case where she cannot reach orgasm that way.
It is also permissible as a postlude if she did not otherwise finish.
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  #5  
Old Dec 20, '05, 10:11 pm
marcadam marcadam is offline
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Default Re: Mutual masturbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixBlue
If it is a mortal ... sin, do the husband and wife place themselves in an occasion of sin when they have decided to "space their children", and yet sleep together, knowing they may not "engage"? Should the husband sleep on the floor?
There are other good comments above, I will only add this: if sharing a bed is a "near occasion of sin" for a husband and wife, then it would suggest that their physical relationship is less than healthy. Specifically, they should be able to be somewhat physically intimate with each other--say, cuddling in bed--without it needing to carry all the way through to sex.
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  #6  
Old Dec 21, '05, 8:20 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Mutual masturbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixBlue
Is it a sin for a husband and wife to, as one priest so described it many years ago, "mutually masturbate"? That is, is it a sin for a husband and a wife (who have four children) to bring each other to an orgasm without the man entering the woman?
It is a disordered act, and if done with full knowledge and free will it is a sin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixBlue
If it is a sin, is it a mortal sin?
It is grave matter. Culpability and sinfulness depend upon the knowledge and free will of the person committing the act.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixBlue
If it is a mortal (or venial) sin, do the husband and wife place themselves in an occasion of sin when they have decided to "space their children", and yet sleep together, knowing they may not "engage"? Should the husband sleep on the floor?
No, there is no sin in sleeping in the same bed as your spouse if you are not engaging in intercourse.
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ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
  #7  
Old Dec 20, '09, 11:10 pm
Hugh Millity Hugh Millity is offline
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Default Re: Mutual masturbation

Here's a question about masturbation within a marriage. What if:

Either the husband or wife require (or like) some hand stimulation before the conjugal act, are open to children, but don't actually end up having intercourse (for any of a variety of reasons, including the wife falling asleep :-). If there is the intent of intercourse, perhaps even just a weak possibility, but it doesn't actually happen, then is mutual masturbation in that case a sin?

And if it is a sin, is the gravity of it lessened at all by other factors, which could include discomfort by one of the spouses from the actual act--- due to physical problems or just lack of practice. I think I read somewhere that a broader spectrum of sexual acts are permissable as long as they lead to or follow intercourse. If this is true, is there a time limit on these activities, for example, could they be permissable the night before a morning where the "marital act" is likely to happen?

I am not trying to be legalistic here, just wondering in which cases I need to rush out to Confession, and where I might be a safe zone.

Thoughts please?
  #8  
Old Dec 21, '09, 12:15 am
stringbeanduck stringbeanduck is offline
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Default Re: Mutual masturbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Millity View Post
Here's a question about masturbation within a marriage. What if:

Either the husband or wife require (or like) some hand stimulation before the conjugal act, are open to children, but don't actually end up having intercourse (for any of a variety of reasons, including the wife falling asleep :-). If there is the intent of intercourse, perhaps even just a weak possibility, but it doesn't actually happen, then is mutual masturbation in that case a sin?

And if it is a sin, is the gravity of it lessened at all by other factors, which could include discomfort by one of the spouses from the actual act--- due to physical problems or just lack of practice. I think I read somewhere that a broader spectrum of sexual acts are permissable as long as they lead to or follow intercourse. If this is true, is there a time limit on these activities, for example, could they be permissable the night before a morning where the "marital act" is likely to happen?

I am not trying to be legalistic here, just wondering in which cases I need to rush out to Confession, and where I might be a safe zone.

Thoughts please?
If the intent was to have foreplay leading to marital relations ending inside the wife, but somehow for X reason it got interrupted and ending inside the wife didn't happen there would be no sin involve. Think about it. If your intent was to do the right, but unforeseen circumstances prevented that how can there be a sin? For there to be mortal sin you must be fully willing to go into the disordered action with the will to purposefully to do wrong.

A sinful action would be if the husband and/or wife decided that just pleasure thier selves with out having any act end inside the wife or engage in foreplay without the intention of having the act finish inside the wife.
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  #9  
Old Dec 21, '09, 9:50 am
OraLabora OraLabora is online now
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Default Re: Mutual masturbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by mumto5 View Post
Yes, it's a mortal sin. Orgasm must take place, at least for the man, where it can lend itself to procreation if that is God's will.
You do not know that.

It is taught as a disordered act and a sin.

Whether it is mortal or not depends on the level of culpability which depends on the state of mind at the time and which can really only be properly discerned by the penitent with the aid of his or her confessor or spiritual director. Go back and read your CCC.
  #10  
Old Dec 21, '09, 10:31 am
prettylarge prettylarge is offline
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Default Re: Mutual masturbation

Can I just get this straight...you guys really believe that if my wife performs oral sex on me resulting in orgasm, and I know the church's stance on this, and I don't feel bad for it in the least, you truly believe that I will go to hell, despite loving God and trying to be a good and moral person?
  #11  
Old Dec 21, '09, 10:41 am
denver faithful denver faithful is offline
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Default Re: Mutual masturbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by prettylarge View Post
Can I just get this straight...you guys really believe that if my wife performs oral sex on me resulting in orgasm, and I know the church's stance on this, and I don't feel bad for it in the least, you truly believe that I will go to hell, despite loving God and trying to be a good and moral person?
It seems to meet the three conditions for mortal sin.
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  #12  
Old Dec 21, '09, 10:55 am
prettylarge prettylarge is offline
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Default Re: Mutual masturbation

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Originally Posted by denver faithful View Post
It seems to meet the three conditions for mortal sin.
That is just silly IMO. If God hated blow jobs so much, why did he make them feel so good?
  #13  
Old Dec 21, '09, 10:59 am
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Lady Kikyo Lady Kikyo is offline
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Default Re: Mutual masturbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by prettylarge View Post
Can I just get this straight...you guys really believe that if my wife performs oral sex on me resulting in orgasm, and I know the church's stance on this, and I don't feel bad for it in the least, you truly believe that I will go to hell, despite loving God and trying to be a good and moral person?

JMJ
Sin isn't determined by how you feel.

If you know X is a sin - regardless of whether or not you believe it is a sin - if you know the matter is serious - regardless of whether or not you believe it is serious - and you do it of your own free will, you are turning your back on God and so yes, a person who does that will go to Hell unless they repent and have the intention of never doing it again.

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What the Truth hath spoken, that for truth I hold.
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  #14  
Old Dec 21, '09, 11:01 am
prettylarge prettylarge is offline
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Default Re: Mutual masturbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Kikyo View Post

JMJ
Sin isn't determined by how you feel.

If you know X is a sin - regardless of whether or not you believe it is a sin - if you know the matter is serious - regardless of whether or not you believe it is serious - and you do it of your own free will, you are turning your back on God and so yes, a person who does that will go to Hell unless they repent and have the intention of never doing it again.

You have to realize, that if I don't believe it is a sin, how could I KNOW it is a sin. If I believed it was a sin, I still wouldn't "know" it was a sin. I know what the church thinks about it (though I am pretty sure if I asked my priest this question he wouldn't agree with you) but I don't agree with what you guys are saying here.
  #15  
Old Dec 21, '09, 11:02 am
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Lady Kikyo Lady Kikyo is offline
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Default Re: Mutual masturbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by prettylarge View Post
That is just silly IMO. If God hated blow jobs so much, why did he make them feel so good?
JMJ

Do you know how good it feels to hit someone who ticks you off?

Your argument doesn't stand.
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