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  #1  
Old Jan 1, '06, 2:41 pm
Sparetherod Sparetherod is offline
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Default Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

Excuse me gang if I got in the way of ongoing conversations. I will be straight forward with you. I am an atheist. I do not come here to provoke you or convert you, and indeed I am not interested in long debates on God's existance, causality, etc. I already know what most theists and Catholics believe and how they defend these beliefs. What I'm more interested in, is how you think. I'm afraid the atheist forums provide few perspectives from a religious view point on my concerns. A few questions: How do you convince a believer that John Edwards cannot talk to spirits, but Moses did? How do you convince a patient that reflexology (a belief that massaging the feet can affect internal organs) did not cure his kidney disease when it improved, but prayer can and might have? How would you convince an alien visitor to earth that an almighty creator cares who he sleeps with?
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  #2  
Old Jan 1, '06, 2:51 pm
awfulthings9 awfulthings9 is offline
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Default Re: Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparetherod
How do you convince a believer that John Edwards cannot talk to spirits, but Moses did?
I wouldn't Perhaps John Edwards can talk to the spirits. Many people today claim that ability. We, as Catholics don't doubt the possibility of it any more than we affirm it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparetherod
How do you convince a patient that reflexology (a belief that massaging the feet can affect internal organs) did not cure his kidney disease when it improved, but prayer can and might have?
I wouldn't. Perhaps reflexology did cure his disease. We, as Catholics have no problem with the effectivenes of medicine or even experimental techniques. Once they are disproven in reputable medical journals and among the scientific community, I, like you, would be skeptical. As far as prayer goes, I wouldn't care one way or the other if the patient believed in its effectiveness. He is better, and whatever the cause, we would both be pleased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparetherod
How would you convince an alien visitor to earth that an almighty creator cares who he sleeps with?
I wouldn't. I would be too busy asking questions about his planet and space travel and all that (or running for my life). Besides, an alien visitor might not be under the same moral law as us. We have no problem with the idea that there are other life forms (probably intelligent out there), but their salvation history and relationship with God is His business, not mine. I'd just be pleased to have satisfied one of my greatest curiosities about what lives beyond the reach of our telescopes.
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  #3  
Old Jan 1, '06, 2:51 pm
ProudArmyWife ProudArmyWife is offline
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Default Re: Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

Okay, I'll bite...

John Edwards gets paid for his performance and seeks out publicity for it. Moses did not.

Don't know much about reflexology except that massage does have medical benefits. Perhaps it was too much of an A cured B thing. When reflexology cures kidney disease in a clinical study, then it becomes science. We catholics do believe in that Otherwise it is a possible miracle (we believe in those, too ).

The Almighty creator probably is concerned on who the alien sleeps with too. We don't marry dogs, fish, etc. (okay, unless you read that thread on the lady marrying the whale, but that is another thread - LOL!). We don't procreate with them.
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  #4  
Old Jan 1, '06, 5:07 pm
JMJ Theresa JMJ Theresa is offline
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Default Re: Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

I certainly hope that John Edwards is either a con-man or highly imaginative because otherwise he is speaking to evil spirits. We are not to ever summon spirits. God can send them of course, but even then we must test them. Remember the girl possessed with the spirit of fortune telling in Acts? Devils have some knowledge of the future and of what they observe in this life.

I guess the only way to convert athiests is to pray, fast, and to appeal to natural law. St. Paul tried to convert the Athenian philosophers by using debate and he no results. He said we should preach Christ crucified. There you go--no reason will convince an athiest. Preach Christ crucified.
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  #5  
Old Jan 1, '06, 5:40 pm
carol marie carol marie is offline
 
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Default Re: Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

John Edwards does not speak to the dead. Have you ever watched him in action? It's a joke.. he makes it all up as he goes along. It goes something like this:

John Edwards: I'm seeing a man.. a man who's name begins with the letter "J".. Jim.. John... Jeff ???

Woman says, "My Uncle's name was Jerry??"

"Yes.. Jerry.. that's it.. and he died of.... something to do with his... stomach? heart? lungs?"

"Actually Unlce Jerry died in a boating accident."

"Yes.. that's right.. a boating accident.. he got water in his lungs. He's telling me somethig about music... did he play in a band? He's showing me music..."

"Well... he did like country music.. I don't think he played in a band though... "

"Well he wants me to tell you that he liked country music.. yes I'm getting that.."

Blah blah blah blah. I could do his job.
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  #6  
Old Jan 1, '06, 8:49 pm
Sparetherod Sparetherod is offline
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Default Re: Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

I appreciate these and any answers still coming.

Happy New Year
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  #7  
Old Jan 1, '06, 8:58 pm
LynnieLew LynnieLew is offline
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Default Re: Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by carol marie
John Edwards does not speak to the dead. Have you ever watched him in action? It's a joke.. he makes it all up as he goes along. It goes something like this:

John Edwards: I'm seeing a man.. a man who's name begins with the letter "J".. Jim.. John... Jeff ???

Woman says, "My Uncle's name was Jerry??"

"Yes.. Jerry.. that's it.. and he died of.... something to do with his... stomach? heart? lungs?"

"Actually Unlce Jerry died in a boating accident."

"Yes.. that's right.. a boating accident.. he got water in his lungs. He's telling me somethig about music... did he play in a band? He's showing me music..."

"Well... he did like country music.. I don't think he played in a band though... "

"Well he wants me to tell you that he liked country music.. yes I'm getting that.."

Blah blah blah blah. I could do his job.


And then when things got a little too detailed he would say "Oh, their pulling away/pulling back, I think we are done here.
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  #8  
Old Jan 2, '06, 1:50 pm
AndyF AndyF is offline
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Default Re: Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

Quote:
I do not come here to provoke you or convert you, and indeed I am not interested in long debates on God's existance, causality, etc.
From an atheist standpoint this is illogical, since first, an atheist does not believe in God and restricts himself to the empirical, it follows then another's interest in myth wastes his time as well as the time of the person he feels is deceived. Secondly, an agreement can never be reached unless both can realize the same bases in commonality. As this delves with the non-substantial, the atheist by his own restriction can never come to terms than anything un-substantial exists.

Your explainion of wishing a debate here therefore is insufficient, and neither would it get approval from a real atheist. But since you are here and are not fully convinced there is no God I will continue.

All those things that needed to be revealed have been. Therefore there is no more new revelations. Anyone coming back from the dead can bring us no more news than what has already been revealed for our salvation.

Jesus warned us not to mess around with necromacy. The reason for this is there is an enemy of ours that is jealous. He is more powerful than we are and his natural domain is here as well as hell. These beings can do extraordinary things, and much beyond our comprehension. The intricate workings of the substantial body is trivial to them as they know every aspect of our being. This is why they can possess us, take on our form and force us to do physical things.

Now in demon's dealing with God, they can get approval from God if they can show the victim made an implicit or explicit approval for demons to do what they desire with them. They approve through sin and curiosity in disobeying Christ's command, an exact case of history repeating itself in the story of the garden of Eden. The deeper these people agree to take on evil as part of their lives, the more protective grace God will withhold. Sometime the demon's presence is not so obvious, and things are looking quite good for the person. But this a time out for some other misfortune to come later, so he will allow him to be fattened up so to speak for the fire until he is ready.

These people who feel innocent in conjuring by any means, which includes oijia boards, are playing with fire, literally.

Andy
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  #9  
Old Jan 2, '06, 1:59 pm
Della Della is offline
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Default Re: Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by carol marie
John Edwards does not speak to the dead. Have you ever watched him in action? It's a joke.. he makes it all up as he goes along. It goes something like this:

John Edwards: I'm seeing a man.. a man who's name begins with the letter "J".. Jim.. John... Jeff ???

Woman says, "My Uncle's name was Jerry??"

"Yes.. Jerry.. that's it.. and he died of.... something to do with his... stomach? heart? lungs?"

"Actually Unlce Jerry died in a boating accident."

"Yes.. that's right.. a boating accident.. he got water in his lungs. He's telling me somethig about music... did he play in a band? He's showing me music..."

"Well... he did like country music.. I don't think he played in a band though... "

"Well he wants me to tell you that he liked country music.. yes I'm getting that.."

Blah blah blah blah. I could do his job.
Exactly. What John Edwards does is a very old parlor trick, only he has the gall to claim he actually talks to the dead when he is doing no such thing. He is, however, preying on people's emotions and need to find peace over the death of a loved one. I think of him as a blood sucker and nothing more. Blech!
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  #10  
Old Jan 2, '06, 2:08 pm
Della Della is offline
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Default Re: Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparetherod
Excuse me gang if I got in the way of ongoing conversations. I will be straight forward with you. I am an atheist. I do not come here to provoke you or convert you, and indeed I am not interested in long debates on God's existance, causality, etc. I already know what most theists and Catholics believe and how they defend these beliefs. What I'm more interested in, is how you think. I'm afraid the atheist forums provide few perspectives from a religious view point on my concerns.
I guess we'll just have to take your word that you are sincere, but shouldn't be we skeptical?

Quote:
A few questions: How do you convince a believer that John Edwards cannot talk to spirits, but Moses did?
And what "spirits" did Moses talk to, pray tell? None that I know of except God himself, who was not yet incarnate as a human being. And what John Edwards does is a very old parlor trick, not "talk to spirits". Just because he claims he does doesn't mean that is what he is doing.

Quote:
How do you convince a patient that reflexology (a belief that massaging the feet can affect internal organs) did not cure his kidney disease when it improved, but prayer can and might have?
A Catholic wouldn't put a false dichotomy between healing methods and prayer. If it heals the patient it is good be it healing therapies or prayer or both.

Quote:
How would you convince an alien visitor to earth that an almighty creator cares who he sleeps with?
Even Carl Sagan declared that aliens wouldn't want to have sex with other species than their own. But, we both know you don't care about the sexual habits of aliens that probably don't exist but with those of humans who do, right?

Ask yourself this: Is sex about giving oneself to another out of love or about getting the next sexual high? If it isn't the first, then it's only a misuse of biology not a true joining of two human beings into one flesh.
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  #11  
Old Jan 2, '06, 10:18 pm
Sparetherod Sparetherod is offline
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Default Re: Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

I hesitate somewhat to respond at this point, but I do want you to know I am checking for responses. I say hesitate because almost anything I say will be taken as a provocation, and I'm not here to irritate people. You will note I stated my intentions right away, but I have already had my logic and sincerity questioned.
Quote:
From an atheist standpoint this is illogical, since first, an atheist does not believe in God and restricts himself to the empirical, it follows then another's interest in myth wastes his time as well as the time of the person he feels is deceived.
Quote:
Your explainion of wishing a debate here therefore is insufficient, and neither would it get approval from a real atheist. But since you are here and are not fully convinced there is no God I will continue.
We should all question our beliefs if we are intellectually honest. Believe me, I am an atheist. My primary worry is that there are way too many people who lack the real critical thinking skills that a modern technological society demands. I do not think it a waste of my time to try and get people to use sound thinking to evaluate the improbable or the impossible. In that sense, how you think is a concern of mine, because if "anything is possible", you may vote and put someone in office who will spend another 20 million to study astral projection or support those who think dinosaurs played with Adam and Eve.

We can't really have a conversation if I'm seen as some agent of the anti-christ. Actually, I was interested in how some might respond to other posters here, since there is a variety in the degree of sceptical thought.
Quote:
What John Edwards does is a very old parlor trick, only he has the gall to claim he actually talks to the dead when he is doing no such thing. He is, however, preying on people's emotions and need to find peace over the death of a loved one. I think of him as a blood sucker and nothing more. Blech!
Exactly.....but Moses gets a pass?

I'll keep checking in.
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  #12  
Old Jan 2, '06, 10:38 pm
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

The question is can John Edwards speak to the dead? As a Brit I've never heard of him so I can only talk generally rather than about him.
If what he does is not a trick, then any speaking to the dead is through Satan and definitely nothing to do with God.
It would be a mortal sin for a Catholic to try and commune with the dead!

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.
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  #13  
Old Jan 3, '06, 4:46 am
Dredgemate Dredgemate is offline
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Default Re: Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

The guy's a Carnie!! check out this web site and see how it's done.

http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/jvplkl.htm
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  #14  
Old Jan 3, '06, 4:49 am
Katie1723 Katie1723 is offline
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Default Re: Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

I talk to my dad and he's been dead for over 2 years. When I am most in need of comfort or just want to try and work things out, it is most often I "talk" to my dad. It is however another thing if he "answers".

~ Kathy ~
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  #15  
Old Jan 3, '06, 5:44 am
Ahimsa Ahimsa is offline
 
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Default Re: Can John Edwards speak to the dead?

Whether Edwards can speak to a non-carnate spirit doesn't seem to be the real question. The real question is: is speaking to a spirit possible?

If you really want to know the answer to that question, then I'm certain you can find books at Barnes & Nobles that can tell you where to go to find out.

If we assume that there are some people out there who can communicate with a non-carnate spirit, then the question becomes: why believe Moses communication with a spirit, over someone else's communication?

Which communication, if followed and practiced, leads to a greater sense of wholeness and intelligence?
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