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  #1  
Old Jan 4, '06, 8:04 am
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FightingFat FightingFat is offline
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Default Mary Worship

OK I've got myself into a proper USA anti-Catholic wrangle!! I have this to deal with-

WHY IS THE CATHOLIC MARY SO IMPORTANT TO CATHOLICS? (Edited out link to anti-Catholic website. PM poster for link.)

The Catholic Church, more than even the Orthodox churches, has raised Mary to the highest rank in their system of belief. They would deny this, but in the practical sense, they cannot deny it. I have recently been thinking about this, and I believe I have come to a correct analysis of the thing.

1. Mary is exalted way beyond Jesus Christ in the practical sense

Here are just a few of the ways in which Mary far outshines Jesus Christ in the Roman Catholic Church"

== Mary jewelry and fetishes are worn about 50 to 1 over Jesus fetishes. Perhaps the most ugly superstition is that of the brown scapula which is said to take the user straight to heaven if they are wearing it when they die. I have one, and it is made of trash materials, and it is the most crass insult to Jesus Christ who shed his precious Blood to pay the price of sin. How tragic that any fool would think a bit of felt and yarn with a cheap printed graphic on it would do the same work as the Blood of Jesus Christ. Here is a warm fuzzy page where the scapula is part of salvation.

== Mary is found far more often than Jesus in the upturned bathtubs in front lawns and gardens, and the same applies to grottos in Mexico, South American, Arizona, and European areas. I have visited many of these grottos in Arizona. They stink from the burnt wax and the sweat of weary travelers, and they are often made of trash tin and rubbish materials. I once watched as an illegal Mexican alien knelt in front of a grotto, prayer, dropped a couple of pesos in the cup, and then staggered out into the sage brush to vomit. Did Mary speak to him? No. Did Mary forgive his sins? No. Did anything happen? No. Nothing. He climbed back into his friend's pick up truck and they wandered off down the road as drunk and damned as they were before the visit to the grotto.

There was a grotto along the road between my home and Nogales. It was in a cave in the hillside, and it was visited often. I used to go up the steps almost every time I passed by, and I dropped Gospel tracts there for the devout superstitious Catholics to read. I also found piles of coins there, and I would take them and buy two dozen eggs on the way home for Mary-- my oldest daughter. This is the only time I know of when "Mary" was actually blessed by the devotions of these superstitious Catholics. "Mary" was thankful.

Anyone able to help??
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Last edited by Michael Francis; Jan 5, '06 at 9:36 pm.
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  #2  
Old Jan 4, '06, 8:21 am
javelin javelin is offline
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Default Re: Mary Worship

Quote:
Originally Posted by FightingFat
OK I've got myself into a proper USA anti-Catholic wrangle!! I have this to deal with-

I also found piles of coins there, and I would take them and buy two dozen eggs on the way home for Mary-- my oldest daughter.

Anyone able to help??
You should point out that stealing is a sin.

I can hardly believe this person would take people's offerings for his own family. But I guess that's fine and following Jesus by honoring His mother is not.

I don't know what would help this person, but I might start out by acknowledging that it is possible for someone to take the veneration of Mary too far -- to the point where that person worships her instead of God. BUT, this is neither taught by nor condoned by the Church. Find the relevant parts of the Catechism that describe true, rightfully ordered Marian devotion and show him what the Church really teaches.

He probably won't believe you, but it's a start.

Peace,
javelin
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  #3  
Old Jan 4, '06, 8:24 am
seabird3579 seabird3579 is offline
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Default Re: Mary Worship

Quote:
Originally Posted by FightingFat
[b]The Catholic Church, more than even the Orthodox churches, has raised Mary to the highest rank in their system of belief.
This issue has been discussed ad nauseum on this Forum, if you cannot accept the place that God, the Father has given the Blessed Virgin Mary in salvation history --- sounds like a personal problem to me.

We will pray for you.

Peace,
Brenda
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  #4  
Old Jan 4, '06, 8:25 am
Fidelis Fidelis is offline
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Default Re: Mary Worship

There is so much anti-Catholic garbage out there on print and on-line, it would be a full time job to continuously go through the trouble to answer it all. Also, it is a fruitless effort, as the medium lends itself to any challenge being easily ignored.

Save your effort for more personal encounters where anti-Catholics or simply mis-informed people can't hide behind the anonymity of the internet.
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  #5  
Old Jan 4, '06, 8:28 am
john ennis john ennis is offline
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Default Re: Mary Worship

Quote:
Originally Posted by FightingFat
OK I've got myself into a proper USA anti-Catholic wrangle!! I have this to deal with-


Anyone able to help??
Yes, this certainly sounds like a wrangle.

The illegal alien certainly is strong evidence for their position.

If every lawn had a bathtub with Mary in it, and every American started the day with 20 decades of the rosary, such devotion would still be entirely appropriate, so long as the honor given to her was solely due to her being the first disciple, the first tabernacle, the Ark of the New Covenant, the New Eve...the Mother of God. She directs us to Christ, and that is why she deserves such attention.

Peace.
John

Last edited by john ennis; Jan 4, '06 at 8:31 am. Reason: clarify
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  #6  
Old Jan 4, '06, 8:37 am
john ennis john ennis is offline
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Default Re: Mary Worship

I wonder if some non-Catholics are ever swayed by the fact that Martin Luther said everything that belongs to Christ belongs to us, and that includes his mother. In spite of all the trinkets, statues, and such, one could state reasonably that people generally give as much attention to their own mothers as Catholics do to Mary; and she is no less deserving.


It's not likely that will outdo our Lord in honoring her, seeing as how he used the sun, the moon, and a crown of stars to adorn her.

Peace.
John
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  #7  
Old Jan 4, '06, 8:38 am
Della Della is offline
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Default Re: Mary Worship

[quote=FightingFat]OK I've got myself into a proper USA anti-Catholic wrangle!! I have this to deal with:

Quote:
[b]== Mary jewelry and fetishes are worn about 50 to 1 over Jesus fetishes. Perhaps the most ugly superstition is that of the which is said to take the user straight to heaven if they are wearing it when they die. I have one, and it is made of trash materials, and it is the most crass insult to Jesus Christ who shed his precious Blood to pay the price of sin. How tragic that any fool would think a bit of felt and yarn with a cheap printed graphic on it would do the same work as the Blood of Jesus Christ.
Well, right off the bat he shows his prejudice by referring to sacramentals as "jewelry and fetishes," which hardly denotes an open mind.

Secondly, the promise of the Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel is dependent on the wearer having lived out his baptismal promises not merely in the wearing of "a bit of felt and yarn with a cheap printed graphic" (another nice description meant to bias the reader against Catholic devotion, which this person clearly knows nothing about).

And in the article he cites the name of Jesus or Christ or God is mentioned 10 times altogether, but Mary is mentioned only once, and nothing is ever said about anyone depending on the Brown Scapular for their salvation. The author only mentions it in passing as a part of his grandfather's devotional life, not that it was the end all and be all of his faith.

Quote:
== Mary is found far more often than Jesus in the upturned bathtubs in front lawns and gardens, and the same applies to grottos in Mexico, South American, Arizona, and European areas. I have visited many of these grottos in Arizona. They stink from the burnt wax and the sweat of weary travelers, and they are often made of trash tin and rubbish materials. I once watched as an illegal Mexican alien knelt in front of a grotto, prayer, dropped a couple of pesos in the cup, and then staggered out into the sage brush to vomit. Did Mary speak to him? No. Did Mary forgive his sins? No. Did anything happen? No. Nothing. He climbed back into his friend's pick up truck and they wandered off down the road as drunk and damned as they were before the visit to the grotto.
This isn't righteous indignation, this is racial/cultural prejudice and sneering fueled by ignorance and bias. And Catholics do have many representations of Jesus. Most of us wear a crucifix and many of us wear medals of Mary or other saints, too. We aren't setting up anyone for worship other than God simply by wearing representations or having statues, we are reminding ourselves of the Incarnation that allows us to honor God's holy ones. As for the "illegal Mexican" (although what his being "illegal" has to do with anything I'm sure I don't know) praying at a wayside shrine and then vomiting, I'd say that Mary very definitely spoke to him when he got sick from being drunk. It could be he was promising never to drink again, and how would that be a bad thing? In this case, I'd say that Mary did save this man. She didn't die for him, of course, only Jesus did that, but Jesus isn't the only means of salvation--his is the Savior through whom the doorway to salvation has been opened. His death and resurrection redeemed mankind opening the door of salvation for all who desire to love and serve God.

Quote:
There was a grotto along the road between my home and Nogales. It was in a cave in the hillside, and it was visited often. I used to go up the steps almost every time I passed by, and I dropped Gospel tracts there for the devout superstitious Catholics to read. I also found piles of coins there, and I would take them and buy two dozen eggs on the way home for Mary-- my oldest daughter. This is the only time I know of when "Mary" was actually blessed by the devotions of these superstitious Catholics. "Mary" was thankful.

Anyone able to help??
So, it's all right for him to steal as a Christian? Oh, that's nice. But, the funny thing is, the money is to be used for the poor, so if this man is so poor he has to take money from a shrine to buy eggs for his daughter, then Mary, the Virgin Mary, did supply his need, even if he is too ungrateful to acknowledge the fact.

As for leaving Gospel tracts, that's all right too. They might actually help a lax Catholic to look deeper into his faith and bring him back to the Sacraments. I suppose it would just about kill this guy to think he might be renewing the faith of "superstitious Catholics" instead of pulling them out of the Church, but some day when Mary has won him for Christ's true Church he will be thankful. Anyone who challenges Mary finds she is a gentle enemy who conquers, not to destroy, as they wanted to destroy her, but to bring him even more deeply into fellowship with her Son, Jesus Christ.
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  #8  
Old Jan 4, '06, 9:43 am
Photini Photini is offline
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Unhappy Re: Mary Worship

Quote:
Originally Posted by FightingFat
Here is a warm fuzzy page where the scapula is part of salvation... They stink from the burnt wax and the sweat of weary travelers, and they are often made of trash tin and rubbish materials. I once watched as an illegal Mexican alien knelt in front of a grotto, prayer, dropped a couple of pesos in the cup, and then staggered out into the sage brush to vomit...
I also found piles of coins there, and I would take them and buy two dozen eggs on the way home for Mary-- my oldest daughter...
First of all, I clicked on the "warm, fuzzy" link, and it was one of the loveliest tributes I'd read in a long time. God bless this dear grandson and his lovely family! I rejoiced with this young man that he had such a Godly example in his beloved Grandfather. I pray my grandchildren will be able to say the same about my husband and me one day!

As for the "stink and sweat," how could this person, a professed Christian, judge this man so? He could very well have been praying for deliverance from this bondage to alcohol! This man reminded me of the sinner in the Gospels who beat his breast and said, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner!" (where we get "the Jesus prayer" from)

As for the "tin and rubbish," my children make pictures for us that are drawn poorly, and have gobs of dried macaroni glued on, and are sometimes torn during the artistic process-- but do you think my husband and I don't LOVE to receive these precious gifts?!? How much more must the Lord be pleased by our "macaroni art" in honor of Him and His Blessed Mother!!!!!

As for the outright theft of the coins, Lord have mercy on this person, for she knows not what she does!

Just my two cents!
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  #9  
Old Jan 4, '06, 9:59 am
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FightingFat FightingFat is offline
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Default Re: Mary Worship

lovely post Photini, thanks!
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~ Ubi caritas et amor deus ibi est.~
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  #10  
Old Jan 4, '06, 9:01 pm
RobbyS RobbyS is offline
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Default Re: Mary Worship

Quote:
Originally Posted by seabird3579
This issue has been discussed ad nauseum on this Forum, if you cannot accept the place that God, the Father has given the Blessed Virgin Mary in salvation history --- sounds like a personal problem to me.

We will pray for you.

Peace,
Brenda
About it. However, I would addd that he might look at "Mary through the Ages," by Jaroslav Pelikan, a Luthern theologican noiw converted to Orthodoxy. Even the superstititious realize that La Morenita is to be worshipped because of all God's creatures, she is the one closest to God but still one of us-- Mother of God but our Mother also.
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  #11  
Old Jan 4, '06, 10:13 pm
Bishopite Bishopite is offline
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Default Re: Mary Worship

(Edited out unneccesary quote of OP per Forum Rules )


These kind of statements are written from those who are anti-intellectual and frankly, irresponsible because they haven't done their homework at all!
One persons account or "opinion" doesn't make up to a hill of beans in "proof."
These types of people engage in what's known as "subjective inductive experiencialism" which simply means they view a particular issue simply how they experienced in life and that makes them take a particular stance on it. It is against objectivity and a dishonest way of taking a position on any particular issue.

Last edited by Michael Francis; Jan 5, '06 at 5:36 am.
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  #12  
Old Jan 5, '06, 4:59 am
seabird3579 seabird3579 is offline
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Default Re: Mary Worship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishopite
These kind of statements are written from those who are anti-intellectual and frankly, irresponsible because they haven't done their homework at all!
One persons account or "opinion" doesn't make up to a hill of beans in "proof."
These types of people engage in what's known as "subjective inductive experiencialism" which simply means they view a particular issue simply how they experienced in life and that makes them take a particular stance on it. It is against objectivity and a dishonest way of taking a position on any particular issue.
I agree. As Catholics most of us are raised to believe certain truths. They are the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow. Our personal experience does not enter the equation. Truth is Truth.

I remember as a young teen having a "best friend" in high school. I thought it very peculiar because she did not see the world this way.

Whatever she saw was directly related to her in a personal way.

Every notorious or popular song on the radio, didn't mean what the author meant it to me, it only meant what it meant to her.

Being young, I tried to understand her perspective but as I grew older it dawned on me what it was;

Self-centeredness.

We must first die to ourselves before we can begin to understand who God is and what He desires for each of us.

Some find "obedience" a difficult concept, Jesus like all of us found it difficult to do, nonetheless He said, "not my will Father but Your will be done."
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  #13  
Old Jan 5, '06, 6:24 pm
dafalax dafalax is offline
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Default Re: Mary Worship

(Edited out unneccesary quote of OP per Forum Rules )

I think when people are rabidly anti-Catholic enough to steal from a holy place, the only "help" for them is prayer. Listening to reason is not likely to happen.
Also, i question the validity of the 50 to 1 statistic of Marian medals, scapulars, etc. worn over Jesus ones. Who conducted that study? Also, the existence of Marian shrines proves nothing. Ask them to point out in the Catechism or other binding doctrinal text where Mary is placed above her son. Otherwise, these "shocking observations" aren't worth the paper they're written on. I couldn't do any of this with charity, which is why i suggested prayer. Which i should do now.
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Last edited by Michael Francis; Jan 5, '06 at 9:34 pm.
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  #14  
Old Jan 5, '06, 8:07 pm
Rand Al'Thor Rand Al'Thor is offline
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Default Re: Mary Worship

Peace be with you!

This person seems like he would be the type of person to think that all pictures, statues ect. of Jesus were graven images, so I don't see why he has a problem that Catholics don't have more of them.

I would pray for this man and remind him that Mary is the mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ. I can just picture what will happen when this man gets to heaven:

Jesus: "Well, you passed out Gospel tracts--that's good, you were spreading my Word. You prayed constantly and worshipped me--that's good. You helped that old lady across the street the other day--that's good. But...what was that you said about my mother?"

Have you ever known a Jewish man to stand for his mother being insulted?

In Christ,
Rand
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Moses et Elias, ora pro nobis.

In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritvs Sancti. Amen.
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