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  #1  
Old Jan 19, '06, 9:12 pm
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kaizen kaizen is offline
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Default How do we explain 1 Corinthians 4:6 saying "DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN"?

That is the ONLY verse in the Bible that somewhat give me a 0.00000000000001% of doubt in my Catholic faith about "Apostolic Tradition". Does that verse imply that we should rely on the Bible alone and not on Tradition? The Iglesia Ni Cristo, a well known "Christian" sect in our country use that verse to prove their belief in Sola Scriptura... What is the proper understanding of 1 Corinthians 4:6 anyway???
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  #2  
Old Jan 19, '06, 9:20 pm
Lapsed Lapsed is offline
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Default Re: How do we explain 1 Corinthians 4:6 saying "DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN"?

Point out that the Gospel of St. John was written after Paul's letters to the Corinthians, so according to their logic should not be in the Cannon and only those portions of the New Testament written prior to 1Corinthians should be admitted.

Paul's own writings were expansions and clarifications of the teachings the Corinthians had received. Pauls own letters go beyond that which had been written to that point. The New Testament Cannon would not be settled for a century or two yet.

I like to point out to those who use these sorts of arguments that the verses they are quoting are included in the Bible as a result of Tradition. They asre using what has come from Tradition to refute Tradition. In formal logic that is known as the "fallacy of the stolen concept," meaning it is an argument against a concept in which the concept itself is necessary for the argument to be valid.
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  #3  
Old Jan 19, '06, 9:40 pm
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Church Militant Church Militant is offline
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Cool Re: How do we explain 1 Corinthians 4:6 saying "DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN"?

Here's a whole list of articles that should help.

Ask them which came first, the New Testament or the Church?

What does the New Testament really say?

1st Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
(Emphasis mine)

More good links: Universal Negatives
Going Beyond this one deal specifically with the verse that you mention.

Buncha good stuff!

Finally Taizen, I urge you to PM Milliardo (LINK) through the system here and get with him on what all you're facing, because he is also right there in the Philippines. He's a really sharp brother who knows his faith well and probably has dealt with those folks as well. Tell him I sent ya.
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  #4  
Old Jan 19, '06, 11:04 pm
thistle thistle is online now
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Default Re: How do we explain 1 Corinthians 4:6 saying "DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaizen
That is the ONLY verse in the Bible that somewhat give me a 0.00000000000001% of doubt in my Catholic faith about "Apostolic Tradition". Does that verse imply that we should rely on the Bible alone and not on Tradition? The Iglesia Ni Cristo, a well known "Christian" sect in our country use that verse to prove their belief in Sola Scriptura... What is the proper understanding of 1 Corinthians 4:6 anyway???
I am Catholic, British, married 24 years to a filipina and live in Manila. Please do NOT have any doubts about our Faith. Especially do not let a deviant sect, who do not even recognise Jesus as god, plant any seeds of doubt. They are an evil cult whose leaders are only out to enrich themselves materially, and who "brainwash" naive and vulnerable people seeking to control them.
There is no doubt in my mind that the leaders of Iglesia Ni Christo are the Devil's agents.
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  #5  
Old Jan 19, '06, 11:35 pm
NiceFundamental NiceFundamental is offline
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Default Re: How do we explain 1 Corinthians 4:6 saying "DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaizen
The Iglesia Ni Cristo, a well known "Christian" sect in our country
Nothing "Christian" about that group. Very cleverly disguised work of Satan, as the above poster mentioned. They appear "Christian" but are not. Pray for those involved.
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  #6  
Old Jan 20, '06, 5:26 am
Chipper Chipper is offline
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Default Re: How do we explain 1 Corinthians 4:6 saying "DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaizen
That is the ONLY verse in the Bible that somewhat give me a 0.00000000000001% of doubt in my Catholic faith about "Apostolic Tradition". Does that verse imply that we should rely on the Bible alone and not on Tradition? The Iglesia Ni Cristo, a well known "Christian" sect in our country use that verse to prove their belief in Sola Scriptura... What is the proper understanding of 1 Corinthians 4:6 anyway???
I haven't looked up those other links presented yet, so forgive me if I repeat what may already be writtien by others.

But, the important thing here is the context of 1Cor4. If you go back and read it carefully, you will see that it is basically talking about "JUDGEMENT". So when Paul said not "exceed what is written", he is talking about the application of "Judgement". He is not talking about the entire "Word of God".

If he were talking about the entire Word of God, then he shouldn't have written anything at all, since his letters do seem to go beyond what had already been written.

Chipper
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  #7  
Old Jan 20, '06, 6:06 am
Fiat Fiat is offline
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Default Re: How do we explain 1 Corinthians 4:6 saying "DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN"?

I recall one apoligist saying that the phrase "do not go beyond what is written" was a common idiomatic instruction that parents would give their children when teaching them to write. The parent/teacher would write a letter, and the child was to trace the letter on his own with the instruction to "not go beyond what is written." In that regard, the phrase simply means to live within the guidelines established.

Does anyone recall hearing this argument before?

In Jesus and Mary
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  #8  
Old Jan 20, '06, 7:16 am
Todd Easton Todd Easton is offline
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Default Re: How do we explain 1 Corinthians 4:6 saying "DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN"?

I have heard the explanation mentioned above by Fiat that it is a common idiomatic instruction or proverbial and that it means to carefully follow the example of non-judgmental humility that Apollos and I (Paul) practice or something like that.

In A Commentary on the New Testament, prepared by The Catholic Biblical Association, 1942, on page 455, it says in part in reference to this verse:
It is probably proverbial. What is written almost invariably refers to the sacred writings. In this case Paul would be referring to Old Testament teachings on humility in such passages as those quoted in 1:19, 31; 3:19f.
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  #9  
Old Jan 20, '06, 7:26 am
Lazerlike42 Lazerlike42 is offline
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Default Re: How do we explain 1 Corinthians 4:6 saying "DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN"?

Remember that 1 Corinthians was written before much of the New Testament. If the readers of it followed Paul's instructions to mean what non-Catholics say that it means, then we must not read Collossians, Phillippians, Romans, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 and 2 Peter, 1 2 and 3 John, Revelation, Acts, Matthew Luke and John, and possibly James, Jude, and Mark. None of these had been written when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians.
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  #10  
Old Jan 20, '06, 7:03 pm
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kaizen kaizen is offline
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Smile It just gave me a "0.000000000001% doubt...

Actually, the reason 1 Corinthians 4:6 affected me is because the Catholic Bible I am using OMITTED that verse. So, somehow it made me think that the Church is trying to hide something; especially when many anti-Catholic groups use that verse to prove sola scriptura. But I do believe in the reality of Apostolic Tradition, and I do believe that sola scriptura is wrong.

Perhaps, the publishers of my Catholic Bible did that to prevent Catholics from being misled by that verse, but instead it made me doubt the Catholic Faith, at least, "slightly".
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  #11  
Old Jan 20, '06, 7:14 pm
Fidelis Fidelis is offline
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Default Re: It just gave me a "0.000000000001% doubt...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaizen
Actually, the reason 1 Corinthians 4:6 affected me is because the Catholic Bible I am using OMITTED that verse. So, somehow it made me think that the Church is trying to hide something; especially when many anti-Catholic groups use that verse to prove sola scriptura. But I do believe in the reality of Apostolic Tradition, and I do believe that sola scriptura is wrong.

Perhaps, the publishers of my Catholic Bible did that to prevent Catholics from being misled by that verse, but instead it made me doubt the Catholic Faith, at least, "slightly".
So which version are you using?
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  #12  
Old Jan 20, '06, 7:22 pm
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kaizen kaizen is offline
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My Catholic Bible doesn't say anything about its "version" or whatever.. It just says that it's a "Catholic Community Bible" published by the "Claretian Publications". It is approved by the "Catholic Bishops Conference of the Philippines", and I'm not sure whether it has an imprimatur or something like that.. I don't have it with me so I can't give any more details, but that's all I can remember.
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  #13  
Old Jan 20, '06, 10:37 pm
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Cool Re: How do we explain 1 Corinthians 4:6 saying "DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN"?

Here's some better ones...

It's also possible that you looked in the wrong place.

http://www.drbo.org/
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_INDEX.HTM
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/rsv.browse.html


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  #14  
Old Jan 22, '06, 10:53 pm
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Default Re: It just gave me a "0.000000000001% doubt...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaizen
Actually, the reason 1 Corinthians 4:6 affected me is because the Catholic Bible I am using OMITTED that verse. So, somehow it made me think that the Church is trying to hide something; especially when many anti-Catholic groups use that verse to prove sola scriptura. But I do believe in the reality of Apostolic Tradition, and I do believe that sola scriptura is wrong.

Perhaps, the publishers of my Catholic Bible did that to prevent Catholics from being misled by that verse, but instead it made me doubt the Catholic Faith, at least, "slightly".
I use the NAB, and the verse is right there. I am not too familiar with the version you're using, other than that I know it's apporved by the CBCP.

As for the INC, it is quite ironic that they use this verse when they interpret Scripture outside of historic Christianity, even in the Protestant context of it. Most Protestant denominations would not even regard them as such, no matter what claims they might make for their sect.
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  #15  
Old Jan 27, '06, 10:26 pm
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kaizen kaizen is offline
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Default Re: How do we explain 1 Corinthians 4:6 saying "DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN"?

I decided to write to the editors and translators of the Bible I am using to ask them why they omitted the passage "do not go beyond what is written" in 1 Corinthians 4:6... I just want to share what they told me..

------------------------------
1 Corinthians 4:6

Greek transliteration
Tauta de, adelphoi, meteschêmatisa eis emauton kai Apollôn di' humas, hina en
hêmin mathête to mê huper ha gegraptai, hina mê heis huper tou henos
phusiousthe kata tou heterou.
English literal translation
These things, brethren, I did transfer to myself and to Apollos because of you,
that in us ye may learn not to think above that which hath been written, that ye
may not be puffed up one for one against the other
The “missing” passage:
do not go beyond what is written = to mê huper ha gegraptai
From “First Corinthians (Sacra Pagina Series),” p. 180, by Raymond F. Collins:
The Greek text found in Greek New Testament (by Barbara Aland et al),
“to mê huper ha gegraptai” is found in virtually all the editions…. The saying is
exceptionally difficult to understand. The purpose clause literally reads, “so that
in us you learn the not above what is written.” One commentator began his
commentary by saying, “let us confess at once that it is untranslatable.” “What is
written” is typical Pauline usage to introduce a scriptural quotation, but no
Scripture is cited and it is difficult to imagine a particular scriptural passage that
the Apostle might have had in mind as he was writing about the example Apollos
and himself have offered to the Corinthians.
From the early days of NT textual criticism many scholars have been of
the opinion that Paul’s words have suffered severe textual corruption in the
process of scribal transcription, but there is little extant textual evidence to
support this view….
Some textual critics, beginning with the 1884 doctoral dissertation of the
Dutch scholar J.M.S. Baljon, have conjectured that “the not above what is
written” was a scribe’s marginal note. The word would have said the word “not,”
omitted from a previous manuscript, was to be inserted into the text. Were this
conjecture correct, Paul’s text would have simply meant, “learn from our
example, so that no one is puffed up to the advantage of someone and the
disadvantage of another.”
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