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  #1  
Old Sep 19, '13, 3:57 pm
Adamski Adamski is offline
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Default "My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

I had the most bizarre conversation of my life yesterday at Starbucks

Ill start off by discussing how I met the person I talked to for over 90 minutes and it could have gone for ever if I didn't need to go.

About a month ago I was praying for a local Protestant church that is very anti-catholic
Mars hill in Seattle.
During praying the rosary I heard a voice say that I needed to go to their bible studies at their church. I signed up and went to one. Right away as I met everyone it was almost like I knew why I was called to be there. I sensed that a person I was talking to was a confirmed catholic. He was also the bible study leader. As the bible study progressed my thoughts where confirmed when the group leader said he was a confirmed catholic then he got into the occult and finally he was "saved" at mars hill.

A couple of days after the bible study I called him to see if he would meet one on one because I wanted to here why he was a Christian and why he went to mars hill.

Then yesterday we met at Starbucks ill briefly go into the part of our conversation that was very strange for me. Also he is extremely bright and works at Microsoft

I asked him why he is a Christian
His response was "the Holy Spirit confirmed it when I read the bible"

I responded "last week I talked I talked to a Mormon and they said "the spirit confirmed the Book of Mormon, you both cant be right"

His response "well I'm right and they are wrong"

I responded "I'm a Christian because history, logic, science, and theology all point to it being true so because it is true I have no choice other to be Christian because I love and seek the truth"

Then I asked "why did you pick mars hill over 38,000 different Christian choices"

He responded "the spirit has guided me there because of the bible"

I said "how do you know the bible is true unless you have a church to guide you as in 1 Tim 3:15, and further how do you know what books should be in the bible"

I know he wasn't just playing a joke on me he also got very angry at me when I told him how great the sacraments where in my life and showed him where the Eucharist and confession was in the bible


Any thoughts on this??
  #2  
Old Sep 19, '13, 5:05 pm
Randy Carson's Avatar
Randy Carson Randy Carson is offline
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Default Re: "My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamski View Post
I had the most bizarre conversation of my life yesterday at Starbucks

Ill start off by discussing how I met the person I talked to for over 90 minutes and it could have gone for ever if I didn't need to go.

About a month ago I was praying for a local Protestant church that is very anti-catholic
Mars hill in Seattle.
During praying the rosary I heard a voice say that I needed to go to their bible studies at their church. I signed up and went to one. Right away as I met everyone it was almost like I knew why I was called to be there. I sensed that a person I was talking to was a confirmed catholic. He was also the bible study leader. As the bible study progressed my thoughts where confirmed when the group leader said he was a confirmed catholic then he got into the occult and finally he was "saved" at mars hill.

A couple of days after the bible study I called him to see if he would meet one on one because I wanted to here why he was a Christian and why he went to mars hill.

Then yesterday we met at Starbucks ill briefly go into the part of our conversation that was very strange for me. Also he is extremely bright and works at Microsoft

I asked him why he is a Christian
His response was "the Holy Spirit confirmed it when I read the bible"

I responded "last week I talked I talked to a Mormon and they said "the spirit confirmed the Book of Mormon, you both cant be right"

His response "well I'm right and they are wrong"

I responded "I'm a Christian because history, logic, science, and theology all point to it being true so because it is true I have no choice other to be Christian because I love and seek the truth"

Then I asked "why did you pick mars hill over 38,000 different Christian choices"

He responded "the spirit has guided me there because of the bible"

I said "how do you know the bible is true unless you have a church to guide you as in 1 Tim 3:15, and further how do you know what books should be in the bible"

I know he wasn't just playing a joke on me he also got very angry at me when I told him how great the sacraments where in my life and showed him where the Eucharist and confession was in the bible


Any thoughts on this??
Burning in the bosom v. led by the Spirit...Different lingo...same process.

However, it could well be that the Spirit did lead the guy to Mars Hill but he can't express it very well. OTOH...

I think you did well. Think he will meet with you again?
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  #3  
Old Sep 19, '13, 5:06 pm
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benjohnson benjohnson is offline
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Default Re: "My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

Adamski, you have a lot of vigor for your faith! Keep it up!

Franlky, that your debating companion got frustrated just by the subject alone indicates that you really must have struck a chord. I pray that he seeks the Eucharist in God's time.

Quote:
one is right and 37,999 are wrong or they are all wrong......
Why yes... one is right! That would be the LC-MS
  #4  
Old Sep 19, '13, 5:08 pm
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dronald dronald is offline
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Default Re: "My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamski View Post
There are currently 38,000 different Protestant denominations all using sola scriptoria as their rule of faith and all claiming to be right....... Only two choices are possible
one is right and 37,999 are wrong or they are all wrong......

Also I may have been baptized when i was young catholic but knew very little of the Catholic Church until I was 34 after spending 7 years at evangelical churches seeing how from a logical perspective Protestantism and sola scriptoria is set up for failure and that was what lead me to the Catholic Church
I don't like this way of thinking. Different cultures will equal different styles of worship which in turn will bring along different Churches and styles of Churches. Our core Trinitarian beliefs are what hold us together no matter what, and most Protestants accept that all of those Churches can be saved through Jesus Christ, as do Catholics.

I don't see where the separation is.
  #5  
Old Sep 19, '13, 5:55 pm
Adamski Adamski is offline
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Default Re: "My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

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Originally Posted by benjohnson View Post
Adamski, you have a lot of vigor for your faith! Keep it up!

Franlky, that your debating companion got frustrated just by the subject alone indicates that you really must have struck a chord. I pray that he seeks the Eucharist in God's time.



Why yes... one is right! That would be the LC-MS
Well if I weren't Roman Catholic I'd have to consider your tradition
  #6  
Old Sep 19, '13, 5:56 pm
Adamski Adamski is offline
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Default Re: "My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

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Originally Posted by Randy Carson View Post
Burning in the bosom v. led by the Spirit...Different lingo...same process.

However, it could well be that the Spirit did lead the guy to Mars Hill but he can't express it very well. OTOH...

I think you did well. Think he will meet with you again?
I'm going to text him right now and ask
  #7  
Old Sep 19, '13, 5:58 pm
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SteveVH SteveVH is offline
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Default Re: "My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dronald View Post
I don't like this way of thinking. Different cultures will equal different styles of worship which in turn will bring along different Churches and styles of Churches. Our core Trinitarian beliefs are what hold us together no matter what, and most Protestants accept that all of those Churches can be saved through Jesus Christ, as do Catholics.

I don't see where the separation is.
Interesting. So is it your view that the doctrine of the Trinity is the defining belief of a Christian? How did you arrive at such a belief?
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  #8  
Old Sep 19, '13, 6:48 pm
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Default Re: "My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamski View Post
I had the most bizarre conversation of my life yesterday at Starbucks

Ill start off by discussing how I met the person I talked to for over 90 minutes and it could have gone for ever if I didn't need to go.

About a month ago I was praying for a local Protestant church that is very anti-catholic
Mars hill in Seattle.
During praying the rosary I heard a voice say that I needed to go to their bible studies at their church. I signed up and went to one. Right away as I met everyone it was almost like I knew why I was called to be there. I sensed that a person I was talking to was a confirmed catholic. He was also the bible study leader. As the bible study progressed my thoughts where confirmed when the group leader said he was a confirmed catholic then he got into the occult and finally he was "saved" at mars hill.

A couple of days after the bible study I called him to see if he would meet one on one because I wanted to here why he was a Christian and why he went to mars hill.

Then yesterday we met at Starbucks ill briefly go into the part of our conversation that was very strange for me. Also he is extremely bright and works at Microsoft

I asked him why he is a Christian
His response was "the Holy Spirit confirmed it when I read the bible"

I responded "last week I talked I talked to a Mormon and they said "the spirit confirmed the Book of Mormon, you both cant be right"

His response "well I'm right and they are wrong"

I responded "I'm a Christian because history, logic, science, and theology all point to it being true so because it is true I have no choice other to be Christian because I love and seek the truth"

Then I asked "why did you pick mars hill over 38,000 different Christian choices"

He responded "the spirit has guided me there because of the bible"

I said "how do you know the bible is true unless you have a church to guide you as in 1 Tim 3:15, and further how do you know what books should be in the bible"

I know he wasn't just playing a joke on me he also got very angry at me when I told him how great the sacraments where in my life and showed him where the Eucharist and confession was in the bible


Any thoughts on this??
My thoughts...
It's too bad he got angry with your about the sacraments.
Hopefully when he calms down some he'll agree to talk further on these matters.

I think it is a good idea to build on his love for he bible and to take two parallel approaches.
1) Look for and acknowledge the things we agree on. This builds a rapport.
2) Also acknowledge the area where there are disagreements and see if these are actual disagreements or if they are misunderstandings.
3) Continue to show him how the bible points to the Church.

I particularly like the "my spirit is right and yours is wrong" outlook because this is precisely the opening that allows one to point to the need for an authoritative Church and that such a church is spelled out in Scripture if one only has the eyes to see it. I find a wonderful correlation between the passage, Mt 18:15-18 and Acts 15. (and where "sin" is mentioned in Mt 18...teaching a false gospel would definitely be a sin).

Anyway - I think you have done good work here..

Peace
James
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Amen.
  #9  
Old Sep 19, '13, 6:52 pm
Christ is Risen Christ is Risen is offline
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Default Re: "My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dronald View Post
If one does not accept the Trinity one can not be a Christian. JW's, SDA's and Muslims all reject it although they accept Christ as a Prophet and therefore cannot be called Christians.

The belief that Jesus is God come in the flesh and that we should be baptized in the Trinitarian formula is what makes one a Christian, imo. Any Religion that says Jesus was not God has to claim that He was "a god" but our God is clear that there is no other God's beside Him. Therefore the Trinitarian formula does not make sense.


This always makes me cringe. Catholics are Christian.

And this is off topic but I also cringe when people call it, "Revelations." There is no "s." Rawr.
Not only that, but Catholics are "spirit-filled" too. Scripture tells us the gifts of the Spirit are not always obvious signs and wonders, they are given for the common good

1 Corinthians 12

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of services, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who activates all of them in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the discernment of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses.

and, of course, we should all know that the next chapter in Corinthians explains what the greatest gift of the Spirit is.......
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  #10  
Old Sep 19, '13, 10:09 pm
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SteveVH SteveVH is offline
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Default Re: "My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dronald View Post
If one does not accept the Trinity one can not be a Christian.
Very true.

What if I didn't accept Baptism as necessary? Or what if I didn't accept the bodily resurrection of Jesus?

You know for the first 1500 years of Christianity believing in the real presence of Christ in the sacrament of the Eucharist was a necessary belief in order to be called a Christian. Why should this be excluded in deciding whether or not one was Christian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dronald View Post
The belief that Jesus is God come in the flesh and that we should be baptized in the Trinitarian formula is what makes one a Christian, imo.
Okay, so now believing in both the Trinity and Baptism are necessary. I would agree. But is that all. And who determines exactly what is necessary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dronald View Post
Any Religion that says Jesus was not God has to claim that He was "a god" but our God is clear that there is no other God's beside Him. Therefore the Trinitarian formula does not make sense.
What do you mean "no other God's beside Him"? and what do you mean by "Therefore, the Trinitarian formula does not make sense"?



This always makes me cringe. Catholics are Christian.

And this is off topic but I also cringe when people call it, "Revelations." There is no "s." Rawr.[/quote]
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  #11  
Old Sep 20, '13, 12:10 am
Brandon Cal Brandon Cal is offline
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Default Re: "My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamski View Post
I had the most bizarre conversation of my life yesterday at Starbucks

[...]

Any thoughts on this??
I don't know what good it'll do you to press this specific issue (How do you know it's the Holy Spirit?) because his experience, like so many others' are manifestations of his own internal mental life, to which only he and God has access. First of all, us Humans are very defensive about our feelings. If I say "I know my wife loves me" and you retort "Oh yeah, how do you know? What if I were to tell you that I "feel" that she doesn't?" I'm probably not going to think very kindly of you. What I think will prove to be a more fruitful conversation is to acknowledge his feeling (that it exists, and that it's his) and then drift the conversation into one of those peripheral matters about which he alleges to have "knowledge" due to that internal mental state which he believes is the Holy Spirit.

I'm probably not making much sense with my cryptic speech here so let me use a concrete example (one you in fact used in your OP). I'm a (reluctant) member of the LDS Church and as you aptly pointed out we Mormons have a tendency of placing an inordinate amount of emphasis on what we believe are "promptings of the spirit"; the "burning of the bosom". If a Mormon bears her testimony to you and you immediately say "Well how do you know that means anything? How do you know it isn't heartburn?", you may very well be factually right and logically justified in asking that question (I do believe it is a very good question, which is why my testimony of the LDS Church has slowly eroded). Nevertheless it's so easy for a person who just shared what she believes is a very sacred, fragile, and important part of her identity (what she "knows" in her "heart") and take any criticism of that as an attack on her person, which of course I know you don't intend to do.

In this case, when the proverbial Mormon comes to you and says "I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God, and I know Joseph Smith was a prophet." rather than ask "well how do you know that?" which you already know how its going to end, as you even said yourself, maybe you ought to just jump to the chase and say something like, "Oh. I admire your determination to in no uncertain terms affirm what you believe has been revealed to you. May I ask you, though, how could Joseph Smith have been a prophet given X, Y, or Z? or How could the Book of Mormon be scripture since <fill in your favorite criticism of the BoM>?" Using this approach you aren't immediately calling into question her ability to discern what she feels (which is of course how she's going to take it), rather you're asking concrete, impersonal questions with concrete, impresonal answers. More often than not, the LDS member in question (or any human for that matter) will begin to give concrete answers since the questions are no longer personal.

Trust me, I've come to learn the hard way how unreliable a "testimony" is, but that doesn't mean I don't know what it's like to feel like I have one, and how integral to my very identity it is. I'd imagine its the same even with Catholics. I've participated in a couple Novenas at the church I'm enrolled in RCIA. There have been a couple notable examples of "Catholic testimonies"; stories of ambiguous healings, stories of an internal sense of calm or relief immediately after the prayer and later on some profound change in their life which they naturally attribute to the Novena (and more indirectly to that "feeling").

There was in fact a woman who was praying for guidance as to whether she should forgo chemotherapy for the sake of some "alternative treatment" <cough> snake oil </cough> and she believed that God answered her prayer by jumping head first into the barrel of quackery! As a biochemist who has actually spent a number of decades studying replication mechanisms in cancerous cells I'm fairly competent and up to date on both the literature and clinical treatment. Of course I could've cut to the chase and went right for her spiritual jugular, but instead I told her "I'm glad that you feel God has answered your prayer, and hopefully I can assist in being a part of your answer to that prayer. Here's what I know about your condition and here's what I know about the absolute dearth of reports of efficacy for the treatment after which you're seeking." Surprise surprise, she actually (very slowly) came around and went back on chemo.

To tailor this burdensomely long post to your situation, maybe next time he says "the Holy Ghost has confirmed it." just go straight for your next question that requires a substantive response? Something maybe along the lines of "Well, brother, I'm quite envious that the Holy Ghost has done such for you! I'm still seeking answers and until my own witness comes, maybe you can help me out with this one: How is it that the Bible could be the sole rule of Faith for the early Church if the Bible as we know it wasn't canonized until centuries after the existence of the very first Christian after Pentecost?

Sorry for the blathering. I usually don't post by improv but this topic has been near and dear to my heart, and (dare I say it) I just sort of let the Spirit guide me along.
  #12  
Old Sep 20, '13, 12:53 am
Cathoholic Cathoholic is offline
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Default Re: "My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

Adamski.

Great work! It sounds like you are well prepared. I would not suggest anyone but a very well prepared (intellectually and spiritually) Catholic to do what you have done. Keep up the great work. You have earned a lot of my respect.

Brandon Cal, you stated:

Quote:
Trust me, I've come to learn the hard way how unreliable a "testimony" is, but that doesn't mean I don't know what it's like to feel like I have one, and how integral to my very identity it is. I'd imagine its the same even with Catholics. I've participated in a couple Novenas at the church I'm enrolled in RCIA.
Wow! If this means what I think it means, welcome home! If not that’s between you and God. Either way, I just put you and Adamski on my prayer list.
  #13  
Old Sep 20, '13, 10:10 am
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Default Re: "My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

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Originally Posted by Brandon Cal View Post
To tailor this burdensomely long post to your situation, maybe next time he says "the Holy Ghost has confirmed it." just go straight for your next question that requires a substantive response? Something maybe along the lines of "Well, brother, I'm quite envious that the Holy Ghost has done such for you! I'm still seeking answers and until my own witness comes, maybe you can help me out with this one: How is it that the Bible could be the sole rule of Faith for the early Church if the Bible as we know it wasn't canonized until centuries after the existence of the very first Christian after Pentecost?
Well said!

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  #14  
Old Sep 21, '13, 6:56 am
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Misplaced_Book Misplaced_Book is offline
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Default Re: "My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

I think that engagement with other Christians of various stripes is important, but I did wince a little when I read the recounting of your conversation.

I don't know if a full frontal assault on the teachings of his church was the best way to go about it. Forgive me for saying this and I pray you don't take it the wrong way, but he may have thought he was having a friendly cup of coffee and felt ambushed by your line of inquiry.
  #15  
Old Sep 21, '13, 7:55 am
debbie_h debbie_h is offline
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Default Re: "My Holy Spirit is right yours in wrong"

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Originally Posted by Randy Carson View Post
Well said!

I'll second that.
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