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  #16  
Old Jan 12, '14, 4:05 pm
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MarcoPolo MarcoPolo is offline
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Default Re: Was Mary Sinless? Fav Arguments

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Couldn't the same just be said about Jesus then? I don't understand why this is so important to Catholics.
If it is divinely revealed, then it's true. We believe divine revelation reveals Mary's Immaculate Conception as well as Christ's sinlessness. We also believe it is proper to live by God's "every word" (cf. Matt. 4:4). The IC points to the divinity of Christ and reflects such OT practices such as the high priest needing to be pure of sin prior to entering the Holy of Holies, which was the "dwelling place" of God, just like Mary. All Marian doctrines are Christological.
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  #17  
Old Jan 12, '14, 4:08 pm
dmar198 dmar198 is offline
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Couldn't the same just be said about Jesus then? I don't understand why this is so important to Catholics.
It's important to Catholics because we believe it is a part of divine revelation, i.e. the Word of God in Scripture and Tradition, and we want to hold fast to God's Word with as much gusto as we can. As to whether the same could be said of Christ, most Catholic apologists seem to say that Christ could have been born of a sinner if He had wanted, but chose not to. I'm not inclined to agree with them because I think that if Jesus' mother had original sin that would put Jesus in a position where He would have inherited original sin. That would require Him to have been preserved from it by a special grace, which would in effect make Jesus "saved." It's fine to have a human like Mary be saved from inheriting original sin; it's not fine to have that for Jesus. Therefore, I'm inclined to think it was necessary that Mary not have original sin; but I think I'm in the minority as far as that theological speculation goes.
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  #18  
Old Jan 12, '14, 4:13 pm
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dronald dronald is offline
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Default Re: Was Mary Sinless? Fav Arguments

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It's important to Catholics because we believe it is a part of divine revelation, i.e. the Word of God in Scripture and Tradition, and we want to hold fast to God's Word with as much gusto as we can. As to whether the same could be said of Christ, most Catholic apologists seem to say that Christ could have been born of a sinner if He had wanted, but chose not to. I'm not inclined to agree with them because I think that if Jesus' mother had original sin that would put Jesus in a position where He would have inherited original sin. That would require Him to have been preserved from it by a special grace, which would in effect make Jesus "saved." It's fine to have a human like Mary be saved from inheriting original sin; it's not fine to have that for Jesus. Therefore, I'm inclined to think it was necessary that Mary not have original sin; but I think I'm in the minority as far as that theological speculation goes.
But Jesus wasn't born at all of natural means, while Mary was. So anything that could be applied to Mary could also be applied to Jesus. "Jesus wouldn't be in an unclean womb because of sin, but Mary was and yet did not inherit sin either." I believe it's a logical fallacy.

Jesus was protected from sin because He was not born the way a human is born. I suppose that, combined with God just doing for Jesus whatever He did for Mary would be sufficient.
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  #19  
Old Jan 12, '14, 5:17 pm
James82 James82 is offline
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Default Re: Was Mary Sinless? Fav Arguments

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But Jesus wasn't born at all of natural means, while Mary was. So anything that could be applied to Mary could also be applied to Jesus. "Jesus wouldn't be in an unclean womb because of sin, but Mary was and yet did not inherit sin either." I believe it's a logical fallacy.

Jesus was protected from sin because He was not born the way a human is born. I suppose that, combined with God just doing for Jesus whatever He did for Mary would be sufficient.
Hi Dronald!

First I'd like to point out that as humans we have no right to apply false dichotomies to our Lord's decisions. That our Blessed Virgin was conceived immaculately has no bearing on how He might go about other things, other than it being in alignment with the fulfillment of the Old Testament.

Logical fallacy indeed! Fortunately, your and my beliefs do not hinge on the credibility of undergrad college arguments.

After all, is it logical that a Man was conceived by the Holy Spirit and dies on a cross to defeat sin and Lucifer?? I think not.

For a Christian movement that bases so much of it's theology on faith, it comes across as rather hypocritical to attack others for things which are accepted on faith. (never mind supporting typo-logical texts and tradition)

Finally, as one Protestant to another (I am in the process of coming in from the rain) I urge you to examine what is about your Catholic brothers and sisters beliefs regarding Marian doctrine that upsets you. Really examine that, and if your soul is open to Truth, you will not be let down.
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  #20  
Old Jan 12, '14, 5:31 pm
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dronald dronald is offline
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Default Re: Was Mary Sinless? Fav Arguments

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Hi Dronald!

First I'd like to point out that as humans we have no right to apply false dichotomies to our Lord's decisions. That our Blessed Virgin was conceived immaculately has no bearing on how He might go about other things, other than it being in alignment with the fulfillment of the Old Testament.

Logical fallacy indeed! Fortunately, your and my beliefs do not hinge on the credibility of undergrad college arguments.

After all, is it logical that a Man was conceived by the Holy Spirit and dies on a cross to defeat sin and Lucifer?? I think not.

For a Christian movement that bases so much of it's theology on faith, it comes across as rather hypocritical to attack others for things which are accepted on faith. (never mind supporting typo-logical texts and tradition)

Finally, as one Protestant to another (I am in the process of coming in from the rain) I urge you to examine what is about your Catholic brothers and sisters beliefs regarding Marian doctrine that upsets you. Really examine that, and if your soul is open to Truth, you will not be let down.
I don't understand the reason for this belief. It could be true, but it's absent from Scripture so I don't see how it could be proven.

You gave a good example of "Christ died on a cross" but He also resurrected and won. His victory over death seems logical to me, as well as its attestation in history.

I don't attack Catholic beliefs or have a problem with them, I just don't understand how they justify some of them. I'm really asking them to justify their beliefs on an Apologetic forum.
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  #21  
Old Jan 13, '14, 12:29 am
shortfuse shortfuse is offline
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Default Re: Was Mary Sinless? Fav Arguments

are you aware that Jesus comes from a bloodline of sinners? David ,committed adultery,murdered a man, there is a prostitute in there,in the bloodline. Although He was sinless , how could Mary claim sinless? She confesses her need of a Savior .
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  #22  
Old Jan 13, '14, 11:53 am
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MarcoPolo MarcoPolo is offline
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Default Re: Was Mary Sinless? Fav Arguments

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are you aware that Jesus comes from a bloodline of sinners? David ,committed adultery,murdered a man, there is a prostitute in there,in the bloodline. Although He was sinless , how could Mary claim sinless? She confesses her need of a Savior .
This was explained in post 5. Short of divine intervention, she could not have had Christ's merit applied to her in advance. The question is whether or not there is evidence in divine revelation for this dogma. Catholics say yes. Here is more thorough reading (by no means an exhaustive list).

Was Mary Born without Sin?
How the cherubim witness to Mary's Immaculate Conception
Catholic Answers tract on the IC
Why Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception (this one includes answers to several objections also)
The Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God by Juniper Carol

It might be interesting to note, that of all the objections and rejections he had of Catholic doctrine, Martin Luther still believed Mary's Immaculate Conception even after he split with the Church.
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  #23  
Old Jan 14, '14, 6:38 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: Was Mary Sinless? Fav Arguments

For our Protestant friends on this thread who struggle to understand either why Catholics believe this doctrine or even just why it is important to us, the best way to delve deeper is to read what the Magisterium (the teaching authority) of the Church says on the issue. I can think of no document better, on this subject, than Pope Pius IX 1854 Encyclical Ineffabilis Deus in which Pius dogmatically (and infallibly) define the dogma.

It's a long document (worth reading in its entirety), so I've broken it down a bit, cut some of the flowery 19th c. prose, and highlighted the more important sections on my blog over the last two days.

If you are interested you might read it there.

PART ONE

PART TWO

If you decide to do so and have any questions, please ask - I can answer any question in the combox over there or on this thread (where you'll also have the input of other Catholics who can answer your question).

God bless.
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  #24  
Old Jan 14, '14, 12:09 pm
dmar198 dmar198 is offline
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Default Re: Was Mary Sinless? Fav Arguments

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Originally Posted by PietroPaolo View Post
For our Protestant friends on this thread who struggle to understand either why Catholics believe this doctrine or even just why it is important to us, the best way to delve deeper is to read what the Magisterium (the teaching authority) of the Church says on the issue. I can think of no document better, on this subject, than Pope Pius IX 1854 Encyclical Ineffabilis Deus in which Pius dogmatically (and infallibly) define the dogma.

It's a long document (worth reading in its entirety), so I've broken it down a bit, cut some of the flowery 19th c. prose, and highlighted the more important sections on my blog over the last two days.

If you are interested you might read it there.

PART ONE

PART TWO

If you decide to do so and have any questions, please ask - I can answer any question in the combox over there or on this thread (where you'll also have the input of other Catholics who can answer your question).

God bless.
Thank you for taking this discussion to some of the central documents and arguments that are connected with it. This discussion was devolving from a discussion of the truth of the doctrine and its sources in Scripture and Tradition to a case of undergrad theological musings about its relevance. As an original participant, I thank you for taking it to a higher level.
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  #25  
Old Jan 16, '14, 2:44 am
Oska2 Oska2 is offline
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Default Re: Was Mary Sinless? Fav Arguments

The Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception refers to the Virgin Mary conceived without the stain of original sin. This is the defining text from the papal encyclical Ineffabilis Deus from 1854:

We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.
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  #26  
Old Jan 16, '14, 8:27 am
shortfuse shortfuse is offline
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Default Re: Was Mary Sinless? Fav Arguments

where is the infallible doctrine defined in Scripture? through the saying, "your womb is blessed"? or she has been "full of Grace" is that it?
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  #27  
Old Jan 16, '14, 8:37 am
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PietroPaolo PietroPaolo is offline
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Default Re: Was Mary Sinless? Fav Arguments

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where is the infallible doctrine defined in Scripture? through the saying, "your womb is blessed"? or she has been "full of Grace" is that it?
First answer me this - Where is the infallible doctrine that everything must be explicitly defined in Scripture taught in Scripture?

If you read my blog post - here - you'll see how we can know Mary was sinless from conception from Scripture.
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  #28  
Old Jan 18, '14, 3:57 am
ericc ericc is offline
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Default Re: Was Mary Sinless? Fav Arguments

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where is the infallible doctrine defined in Scripture? through the saying, "your womb is blessed"? or she has been "full of Grace" is that it?
How about bad tree can not produce good fruit? If Jesus is considered good fruit, therefore the tree must be considered good too.
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  #29  
Old Jan 18, '14, 6:57 am
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Cool Re: Was Mary Sinless? Fav Arguments

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Originally Posted by dronald View Post
But Jesus wasn't born at all of natural means, while Mary was. So anything that could be applied to Mary could also be applied to Jesus. "Jesus wouldn't be in an unclean womb because of sin, but Mary was and yet did not inherit sin either." I believe it's a logical fallacy.
In Catholic theology original sin is regarded as the general state of sinfulness, that is the absence of sanctity and perfect charity, into which all human beings are born. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, original sin is the natural state "of deprivation of the original holiness and justice" we inherit as descendants of Adam and Eve. It is a sin which is contracted by all human beings by natural propagation, not a sin committed by them. Thus original sin does not entail any personal responsibility or guilt on our part as human beings. We do not inherit any "original guilt" as descendants of Adam which Calvin believed we do. Adam's particular sin is his own personal sin which he committed. Because original sin is a state or condition of our human nature and not a sinful act itself on our part, original sin "does not take on the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants". We are all simply implicated in Adam's sin, including Mary. And because God did not hold Mary personally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve, He could - and did - in His divine mercy, without negating His divine justice, preserve Mary immune from the stain of original sin by a "singular grace and privilege in view of the merits of Christ". Without Divine intervention, Mary would have been conceived in the state of deprivation of the original holiness and justice, since she was a human being and not a Divine Person in the flesh like her Son.

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Last edited by Good Fella; Jan 18, '14 at 7:12 am.
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  #30  
Old Jan 18, '14, 7:22 am
PoorKnight PoorKnight is offline
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Default Re: Was Mary Sinless? Fav Arguments

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where is the infallible doctrine defined in Scripture? through the saying, "your womb is blessed"? or she has been "full of Grace" is that it?
There are tons of ways Scripture shows us that Mary was concieved without sin.

But let me point out this: Mary's sinlessness was NOT necessary. God could have chosen a sinful woman to bear His son.

But instead God gave this as a free gift.

Let me show you one of the ways we know Mary was with out sin:

Let's start with the question: What does "emnity" mean? According to dictionary.com it means 'deep seeded hatred' and 'to be enemies'. According to one anti-Catholic source it means to be completely opposite and seperate from each other.

Are we, humans, completely seperate from sin and the devil? We'd like to say 'yes' but we have to remember that we still sin. So we cannot say we are completely seperate from satan.

What does Scripture say about Christ? Scripture says that Christ and Satan will have "enmity" between them. Does this make sense? Absolutely.

What does this have to do with Mary? In the same Scripture where it says that Christ and Satan will have "enmity" between them, it ALSO says that MARY and Satan will have "enmity" between them (Gen 3:15).

So, again, could Mary have had any sin but still have "enmity" between her and Satan?

Also we see in Revelations that Satan attempts to get at Mary (the woman) but Mary was taken "out of the serpant's reach" (Rev 12:14).

Are we sinners "out of the serpant's reach"? If we were honest, we'd have to say no.

On top of this, Scripture show that Mary is the New Eve, The New Ark of the Covenant as well as other things. See: http://www.catholic.com/radio/shows/...e-new-eve-4624
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/art...e-new-covenant

As the New Eve was created with out sin, could the New Eve be any different?

As R.C. Sproul put it, the Ark was so holy that no sinful man could touch it. Is the New Ark any different?

Just food for thought.
God Bless you in your journey of Faith,
Poor Knight for Christ and His Church
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