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  #1  
Old Jan 16, '09, 2:21 pm
hvadney hvadney is offline
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Default Scriptural Bases for Agism

Peace and Blessings!

I wonder if anyone can help me with some Scriptural passages that refute age as being an obstacle to doing God's work. There are several well-known passages that show that youth is not an impediment (cf. 1 Sam 3:1-18, 1 Sam 16:1-13, Jer 1:4-10, Lk 1:26-38, etc.) but I need some passages that support the thesis that maturity or advanced age is also no impediment to doing God's work.

Many thanks in advance for any help you can provide!

Please also feel free to contact me at [email protected] if you'd like to discuss my request personally.

Harold
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  #2  
Old Jan 18, '09, 12:54 pm
brigid12 brigid12 is offline
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Default Re: Scriptural Bases for Agism

Quote:
Originally Posted by hvadney View Post
Peace and Blessings!

I wonder if anyone can help me with some Scriptural passages that refute age as being an obstacle to doing God's work. There are several well-known passages that show that youth is not an impediment (cf. 1 Sam 3:1-18, 1 Sam 16:1-13, Jer 1:4-10, Lk 1:26-38, etc.) but I need some passages that support the thesis that maturity or advanced age is also no impediment to doing God's work.

Many thanks in advance for any help you can provide!

Please also feel free to contact me at [email protected] if you'd like to discuss my request personally.

Harold
How about the birth of a child to Abraham and Sarah? How about the birth of a child to Zechariah and Elizabeth? How about how old Moses was during the Exodus? How about the age of Peter when he started leading the Church? Etc.,etc., etc.
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  #3  
Old Mar 16, '09, 6:14 am
hvadney hvadney is offline
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Default Re: Scriptural Bases for Agism

In the meantime, I have received about 130 responses from about 161 dioceses across the USA re: whether the diocese has age limits on vocations (specifically the permanent diaconate).

Interestingly, many of the poorer performers (e.g. my own Albany NY diocese) have caps on vocations.

Any thoughts on this or comments on articles you may have read or information you may have gleaned?

I was hoping (I do a lot of that) that we could get a lively exchange going here. I do hope it hasn't petered out for lack of interest because I do continue to think of it as an important social justice issue.
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  #4  
Old Mar 17, '09, 7:16 am
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Scriptural Bases for Agism

Quote:
Originally Posted by hvadney View Post
In the meantime, I have received about 130 responses from about 161 dioceses across the USA re: whether the diocese has age limits on vocations (specifically the permanent diaconate).

Interestingly, many of the poorer performers (e.g. my own Albany NY diocese) have caps on vocations.

Any thoughts on this or comments on articles you may have read or information you may have gleaned?

I was hoping (I do a lot of that) that we could get a lively exchange going here. I do hope it hasn't petered out for lack of interest because I do continue to think of it as an important social justice issue.
What do you mean by that?
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  #5  
Old Mar 17, '09, 7:36 am
hvadney hvadney is offline
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Default Re: Scriptural Bases for Agism

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Originally Posted by thistle View Post
What do you mean by that?
If I understand your question correctly, you don't understand what I mean by "an important social justice issue"?

Agism is an issue of social justice. Agism is unjust. Agism is wrong. Agism is a social problem. Agism, discrimination on the basis of age or any other distinction based solely on an individual's age without consideration of the individual's overall competencies and qualities, is wrong.

Agism is wrong in secular society and even more wrong if promoted or implemented directly or indirectly in the Church.

Hope that's clearer for you.
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  #6  
Old Mar 17, '09, 5:20 pm
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Scriptural Bases for Agism

Quote:
Originally Posted by hvadney View Post
If I understand your question correctly, you don't understand what I mean by "an important social justice issue"?

Agism is an issue of social justice. Agism is unjust. Agism is wrong. Agism is a social problem. Agism, discrimination on the basis of age or any other distinction based solely on an individual's age without consideration of the individual's overall competencies and qualities, is wrong.

Agism is wrong in secular society and even more wrong if promoted or implemented directly or indirectly in the Church.

Hope that's clearer for you.
What is your beef with the Church?
Obviously age has a bearing on what people can or cannot do and should or should not do.
Are you saying there should be no bar to a 5-year old child doing brain surgery or a 95 year old person flying a commercial airline?
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  #7  
Old Mar 18, '09, 10:09 am
hvadney hvadney is offline
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Default Re: Scriptural Bases for Agism

Quote:
Originally Posted by thistle View Post
What is your beef with the Church?
Obviously age has a bearing on what people can or cannot do and should or should not do.
Are you saying there should be no bar to a 5-year old child doing brain surgery or a 95 year old person flying a commercial airline?
I am speaking within reasonable limits. You appear to be itching for a confrontation when you suggest that there is a "beef".

Please re-read my postings, try to grasp what they are saying, understand them, and THEN respond. I don't respond to baiting and don't respond to postings that obviously have an incorrect and very subjective [polarized, wrong] interpretation of something that is very, very clear from the outset. That's how good faith topics turn into evil flaming seesions. Wouldn't you agree?

There's no need to try to be funny or posit outrageous examples and hope for a bite. All you need to do is comment on agism--I'll presume you know what it is or have some idea--but if you don't, again, please read my posts because I give a definition there.

But giving you the benefit of doubt and the possibility that your posting is sincere, I would say definitely that if there is a prodigy 5-year old jet pilot YES! In fact, being a pilot myself, I was acquainted with an instructor whose father had him in his airplane at 5-6 and sitting on cushions and a phonebook working the controls (dad was on the rudder!). If there's someone who's physically fit and passes his/her flight physical at 95, God bless him/her--in fact, AOPA recently feted just that sort of personality. I think he was in his 90s and still actively flying. Google it! So, even as far-fetched as your suggestion might have been, truth is stranger than fiction.

Thanks very much!
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  #8  
Old Mar 18, '09, 4:59 pm
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Scriptural Bases for Agism

Quote:
Originally Posted by hvadney View Post
I am speaking within reasonable limits. You appear to be itching for a confrontation when you suggest that there is a "beef".

Please re-read my postings, try to grasp what they are saying, understand them, and THEN respond. I don't respond to baiting and don't respond to postings that obviously have an incorrect and very subjective [polarized, wrong] interpretation of something that is very, very clear from the outset. That's how good faith topics turn into evil flaming seesions. Wouldn't you agree?

There's no need to try to be funny or posit outrageous examples and hope for a bite. All you need to do is comment on agism--I'll presume you know what it is or have some idea--but if you don't, again, please read my posts because I give a definition there.

But giving you the benefit of doubt and the possibility that your posting is sincere, I would say definitely that if there is a prodigy 5-year old jet pilot YES! In fact, being a pilot myself, I was acquainted with an instructor whose father had him in his airplane at 5-6 and sitting on cushions and a phonebook working the controls (dad was on the rudder!). If there's someone who's physically fit and passes his/her flight physical at 95, God bless him/her--in fact, AOPA recently feted just that sort of personality. I think he was in his 90s and still actively flying. Google it! So, even as far-fetched as your suggestion might have been, truth is stranger than fiction.

Thanks very much!
I have re-read all the posts and note that you have simply given vague generalisations. What exactly are you complaining about? Give us a clear specific example then because it simply sounds like you have been rejected for something and you are sulking.
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  #9  
Old Mar 19, '09, 4:45 am
hvadney hvadney is offline
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Default Re: Scriptural Bases for Agism

Thank you, Thistle, for your postings.

I don't believe a response will be productive; you apparently have a bone and you're going to gnaw at it.

Hope any other postings will be of interest to you.
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  #10  
Old Mar 19, '09, 5:13 am
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Scriptural Bases for Agism

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Originally Posted by hvadney View Post
Thank you, Thistle, for your postings.

I don't believe a response will be productive; you apparently have a bone and you're going to gnaw at it.

Hope any other postings will be of interest to you.
So you are unable to give examples?? How can we have "a lively exchange" when you refuse to be specific.
From the lack of other posters I guess they feel the same way.
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  #11  
Old Mar 20, '09, 5:32 pm
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Corki Corki is offline
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Default Re: Scriptural Bases for Agism

Quote:
Originally Posted by hvadney View Post
If I understand your question correctly, you don't understand what I mean by "an important social justice issue"?

Agism is an issue of social justice. Agism is unjust. Agism is wrong. Agism is a social problem. Agism, discrimination on the basis of age or any other distinction based solely on an individual's age without consideration of the individual's overall competencies and qualities, is wrong.

Agism is wrong in secular society and even more wrong if promoted or implemented directly or indirectly in the Church.

Hope that's clearer for you.
I think my response belongs on your parallel thread in Social Justice instead of here in Scripture but I wanted to respond to this post.

Agism is often unjust but not always. An example of agism that is quite just is the reverence paid to older citizens in many cultures or the increase of judicial penalties when a crime is comitted against a child. In both examples, age is the only differentiating factor but the differential treatment is not at all unjust.

A single person may seek a spouse close to his/her age. That is agism but not unjust.

Agism in employment is usually wrong. There are many jobs that regardless of skill would not be appropriate for minors and others that have BFJQ (bona fide job qualifications in HR-speak) for an upper age limit. But overall, age discrimination in employment is unjust. That would be true in the Church as well but you would have to give an example of where agism exists in employment in the Church to ellicit any meaningful discussion on this matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hvadney View Post
In the meantime, I have received about 130 responses from about 161 dioceses across the USA re: whether the diocese has age limits on vocations (specifically the permanent diaconate).

Interestingly, many of the poorer performers (e.g. my own Albany NY diocese) have caps on vocations.

Any thoughts on this or comments on articles you may have read or information you may have gleaned?

I was hoping (I do a lot of that) that we could get a lively exchange going here. I do hope it hasn't petered out for lack of interest because I do continue to think of it as an important social justice issue.
By "caps" I assume you mean age limits. Due to your comments on pilots, I am afraid you are confusing entrance into a diaconate formation program with employment and trying to apply a social justice concern for employment discrimination on something entirely different. I understand from other posts of yours that you are in formation for the diaconate. Hopefully, in your program they stress the fact that this is a vocation just as much as a vocation to the priesthood is and not a job. As such, there are guidelines and there are rules, which may or may not be the same. Part of the process of discernment, hopefully undertaken before actual formation begins, is dialoge between the candidate and the vocations director to see which guidelines are applied. Age limits maybe a guideline that can be dispensed by the Bishop or Religious Superior.

The guidelines themselves may be there for reasons having nothing to do with injustice. For example, there may be a limited number of spaces available in each formation class. Many diocese expect deacons to be employed "in the world". Someone past retirement age would not be able to meet that expectation. Or there may be something completely practical such as insurance requirements. A simple survey will give you the "who" but not the "why".
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