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  #766  
Old Nov 20, '09, 2:42 am
Wahid Azal Wahid Azal is offline
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Default Bahaism is a cult. Beware of their apologia

The wikipedia article has as much objectivity and credibility as the heresiographies of Ireneus regarding the Gnostics or the Republican Party's current stance on healthcare reform in the US - zero! This, besides the fact that wikipedia itself as a venue has increasingly been denounced far and wide. The article in question was written by Baha'is and it is propaganda, subtle libel, innuendo and defamation all the way, as was Douglas Martin's only official review of the book.

That said, the Baha'i position is complete hubris: That William Miller was a Presbyterian missionary to Iran for 50 years actually bolsters his credentials rather than diminishes it. But William Miller is not the only source on my blog. I've also cited Vance Salisbury's AN EXAMINATION OF SUPPRESSION AND DISTORTION IN 20th-CENTURY BAHA'I LITERATURE

http://bahai-library.org/unpubl.arti...ppression.html

which has never been officially responded to by the Baha'is, not to mention sundry other sources. There are also the following articles that Christians especially need to take a look at,

BAHAISM AND RELIGIOUS ASSASSINATION
The Muslim World vol. 4, issue 4, 1914.

&

BAHAISM AND RELIGIOUS DECEPTION
The Muslim World, Volume 5, Issue 2,1914-1915.
at,
http://wahidazal66.googlepages.com/b...ternsources%29

That said, can someone explain how it comes to be that the Haifan Baha'i internet committee/BAHAI INTERNET AGENCY is on a Catholic forum vigorously hard-selling their NWO cult? And can someone also explain to me why DavidMark (aka Badi Villar Cardenas) invited me over here to debate with him regarding the Bayan? If he is so inclined, he can come over to my turf at [email protected] and I will happily debate circles around him in order to dispatch him on his merry way.

For everyone else (i.e. non-Baha'is), be extremely weary of these people and scrutinize everything they say with a fine tooth comb, and then scrutinize it some more. They are to the Abrahamic tradition what Scientology is to the New Age. And read through my blog below to see for yourselves the true ugly face of the dominant Haifan faction of this cult of the Antichrist:

http://bahaicultfaq.blogspot.com/

Wahid Azal
  #767  
Old Nov 20, '09, 3:15 am
planten planten is offline
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Default Re: "The Baha'i Faith"

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMark View Post
Bahá’u’lláh says, "The universe hath neither beginning nor ending." He has set aside the elaborate theories and exhaustive opinions of scientists and material philosophers by the simple statement, "There is no beginning, no ending." The theologians and religionists advance plausible proofs that the creation of the universe dates back six thousand years; the scientists bring forth indisputable facts and say, "No! These evidences indicate ten, twenty, fifty thousand years ago," etc. There are endless discussions pro and con. Bahá’u’lláh sets aside these discussions by one word and statement. He says, "The divine sovereignty hath no beginning and no ending." By this announcement and its demonstration He has established a standard of agreement among those who reflect upon this question of divine sovereignty; He has brought reconciliation and peace in this war of opinion and discussion. (Abdu'l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 218)
DavidMark, do you mean to say that Bahullah believed that Universe was God?. It has no beginning and no end?. We believe that Universe was created. God is the Creator. God has no beginning and no end. But Bahaullah says that Universe has no beginning and no end.

Will you please explain this matter in simple words?? God or Allah is the Khaaliq. He has created things. If Universe existed by itself without any beginning then it means it was always there (or here). And so it was not created by God.

If God did not create the Universe then what did He create?? Please reply in simple words. Does it mean that the world will never end. And there will be no end and no next world (Qiyaamat).
  #768  
Old Nov 20, '09, 10:27 am
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arthra arthra is offline
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Default Re: "The Baha'i Faith"

Mr. Azal,

If you are indeed an Azali and have to site a Presbyterian Missionary it would seem to me that objectivity is not upppermmost in your mind I would offer..

An objective historian needs to look at both sides..

You choose though to look at only one.

Further comment on Miller's work:

http://bahai-library.com/file.php?fi...er_bahai_faith

- Art

Last edited by arthra; Nov 20, '09 at 10:38 am.
  #769  
Old Nov 20, '09, 10:35 am
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arthra arthra is offline
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Default Re: "The Baha'i Faith"

Quote:
Originally Posted by planten View Post
DavidMark, do you mean to say that Bahullah believed that Universe was God?. It has no beginning and no end?. We believe that Universe was created. God is the Creator. God has no beginning and no end. But Bahaullah says that Universe has no beginning and no end.

Will you please explain this matter in simple words?? God or Allah is the Khaaliq. He has created things. If Universe existed by itself without any beginning then it means it was always there (or here). And so it was not created by God.

If God did not create the Universe then what did He create?? Please reply in simple words. Does it mean that the world will never end. And there will be no end and no next world (Qiyaamat).
For Baha'is creation is an ongoing process that didn't stop with "the sixth day" and we believe creation preceded the "first day" of Genesis ...So the universe has neither beginning or end and means in our view that God hasn't rested..

In this way cycles begin, end and are renewed, until a universal cycle is completed in the world, when important events and great occurrences will take place which entirely efface every trace and every record of the past; then a new universal cycle begins in the world, for this universe has no beginning.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 160)

THE UNIVERSE IS WITHOUT BEGINNING

THE ORIGIN OF MAN

Know that it is one of the most abstruse spiritual truths that the world of existence -- that is to say, this endless universe -- has no beginning.
We have already explained that the names and attributes of the Divinity themselves require the existence of beings. Although this subject has been explained in detail, we will speak of it again briefly. Know that an educator without pupils cannot be imagined; a monarch without subjects could not exist; a master without scholars cannot be appointed; a creator without a creature is impossible; a provider without those provided for cannot be conceived; for all the divine names and attributes demand the existence of beings. If we could imagine a time when no beings existed, this imagination would be the denial of the Divinity of God. Moreover, absolute nonexistence cannot become existence. If the beings were absolutely nonexistent, existence would not have come into being. Therefore, as the Essence of Unity (that is, the existence of God) is everlasting and eternal -- that is to say, it has neither beginning nor end -- it is certain that this world of existence, this endless universe, has neither beginning nor end. Yes, it may be that one of the parts of the universe, one of the globes, for example, may come into existence, or may be disintegrated, but the other endless globes are still existing; the universe would not be disordered nor destroyed. 181 On the contrary, existence is eternal and perpetual. As each globe has a beginning, necessarily it has an end because every composition, collective or particular, must of necessity be decomposed. The only difference is that some are quickly decomposed, and others more slowly, but it is impossible that a composed thing should not eventually be decomposed.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 179)
  #770  
Old Nov 20, '09, 12:37 pm
Lapell Lapell is offline
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Default Re: "The Baha'i Faith"

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMark View Post
Hi Lapell,
You are asking the question as if I think Christ was wrong...which I don't.
Matthew did not think Moses was wrong.
But Jews probably asked Him why he thought Judaism was so wrong.
He quoted OT traditions to show how Christ fulfilled them. But after 2000 years the Jews still don't get it. Some Christians will be like that. Others will recognize the Shepherd's Voice and adopt His New Name.
Like-minded believers become communities that grow larger and larger; and thus civilization has a pulsating effect, that will continue forever.
I see now that it isn't enough for the believers in the renewed ancient faith to try to explain to the previous group, only God can convince them!
So, every heart must determine which vision is genuine or not, and be faithful to that.
If every heart is to determine which vision is genuine or not like you are saying, then there should be sure, solid, objective criterias to do so, should there not? And where would they be coming from? Obviously you already see that it can't come from a tabula rasa mentality, but still how can you make sure you have the right criteria and not the wrong ones, or that none of your criteria are wrong?
__________________
"Not a hundred people in the United States hate the Roman Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church." -Bishop Sheen

"Love and Truth meet,
Justice and Peace embrace." (Psalm 85)
  #771  
Old Nov 20, '09, 12:47 pm
Lapell Lapell is offline
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Default Re: "The Baha'i Faith"

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMark View Post
Hi Lapell,
You are asking the question as if I think Christ was wrong...which I don't.(...)

Lapell: -The question on # 760? If you don't believe Jesus was wrong, then why did you leave Christianity for the Baha'i Faith?

Why not keep your comment in one post?
Do you find it difficult to read when I put a couple of related ideas in separate posts?
__________________
"Not a hundred people in the United States hate the Roman Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church." -Bishop Sheen

"Love and Truth meet,
Justice and Peace embrace." (Psalm 85)
  #772  
Old Nov 20, '09, 3:33 pm
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arthra arthra is offline
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Default On finding the Truth:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapell View Post
If every heart is to determine which vision is genuine or not like you are saying, then there should be sure, solid, objective criterias to do so, should there not? And where would they be coming from? Obviously you already see that it can't come from a tabula rasa mentality, but still how can you make sure you have the right criteria and not the wrong ones, or that none of your criteria are wrong?
II'd like to respond to that..

You know every person who declares their belief in Baha'u'llah is expected to independently investigate the Faith..

So it could be different for each person.

Abdul-Baha indicates there are four criteria for a person to reach the truth..

1. Through the senses;

2. Through the intellect;

3. Through tradition or scriptural investigation;

4. Through inspiration..

Abdul-Baha concludes:

Consequently, it has become evident that the four criteria or standards of judgment by which the human mind reaches its conclusions are faulty and inaccurate. All of them are liable to mistake and error in conclusions. But a statement presented to the mind accompanied by proofs which the senses can perceive to be correct,

which the faculty of reason can accept,

which is in accord with traditional authority

and sanctioned by the promptings of the heart,

can be adjudged and relied upon as perfectly correct, for it has been proved and tested by all the standards of judgment and found to be complete.

When we apply but one test, there are possibilities of mistake. This is self-evident and manifest.

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 254)

- Art
  #773  
Old Nov 20, '09, 3:39 pm
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DavidMark DavidMark is offline
 
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Default Re: "The Baha'i Faith"

I like Lapells question. The criteria have to be set by real divine Revelations, which have proved themselves over time. (Baha'i is only about 160 years, but I'd say it's done a pretty good job so far... but) Christian proofs are often related to OT prophecies.

Christ gave three criteria that are critical:
First Sign:
And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them...this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:3-4 & 14)
The Christian Gospel was preached on all continents by 1844. It was also spread by Muhammad among people who had not known about Jesus; even though some “Christians” do not want to admit it

Second Sign:
And they asked Him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? And He said...they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (Luke 21:7 & 24)

Third Sign:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand). (Matthew 24:15) Jesus refers to the following prophecy in Daniel 8:13-14: ...How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


Jesus also gave three signs, or proofs, that had to appear:

First Proof
Deuteronomy 18:21 'How may we know the word which the Lord has not spoken? --When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumtuously, you need not be afraid of him.
Baha'u'llah gave many prophecies, in the name of the Lord. Here is one of them:
O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory. (Kitab-i-Aqdas, #90)
Now could someone explain to me why, after He wrote this from Akko, in Palestine, in 1873, in the name of the Lord, that we should forget God's instruction in Deuteronomy?

Second Proof
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:2 & 3 KJV) [The testimonies to Christ are as natural as Christ’s to Moses.]

The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say: verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul. (Tablet to the Christians, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 11)

Third Proof
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matthew 7:16-20) [So what are the fruits? Notice Jesus repeats that you SHALL know them by this test.]

This teaching is of the Spirit, in it is no precept which is not of the Divine Spirit.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 85)
  #774  
Old Nov 20, '09, 4:09 pm
Wahid Azal Wahid Azal is offline
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Default Bahaism is a NWO cult

Quote:
Originally Posted by arthra View Post
Mr. Azal,

If you are indeed an Azali and have to site a Presbyterian Missionary it would seem to me that objectivity is not upppermmost in your mind I would offer..
You seem to be arguing typical Bahai argumentative red herrings and non sequitors. Miller is only one source I have cited on my blog. But that aside, since you people seem to have a longstanding bee in your bonnet regarding Miller, besides your irrelevent complaint that he was a Presbyterian Missionary, do you people actually have anything on the facts and content of Miller's book you have a problem with? You don't, and neither does Douglas Martin or the link you provided from your Baha'i resources library below. The entire complaint of Bahais regarding Miller reduces to nothing more than libel, innuendo and defamation about Miller's character rather than anything about the actual content of the work itself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arthra View Post
An objective historian needs to look at both sides..
This is quite a rich complaint coming from you people who don't know the actual meaning of "objective history" seeing how your entire historiography is contrived, tampered with and whitewashed from start to finish. Miller did the best he could with the material at his disposal and as such was far more objective than any Baha'i historian before or since.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arthra View Post
You choose though to look at only one.
Since I am an ex-Bahai from a Persian Bahai family, who claim your cult for six generations on one side, I believe I have looked at all the sides far deeper and comprehensively than you or your glaze-eyed lot here. Plus unlike many of you, including Sen McGlinn here, I actually know the source languages and have read pretty much everything, material which most of you don't and will never have access to.


http://bahai-library.com/file.php?fi...er_bahai_faith

Worth much less in content than the wikipedia link put up earlier.

And we are called BAYANIS, not Azalis (a term of derision fabricated by Abbas Effendi, your British stooge center of the covenant).

Wahid Azal

http://bahaicultfaq.blogspot.com/
  #775  
Old Nov 20, '09, 6:17 pm
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arthra arthra is offline
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Default Re: "The Baha'i Faith"

Wahid Azal..

wrote above:

"And we are called BAYANIS, not Azalis (a term of derision fabricated by Abbas Effendi, your British stooge center of the covenant)."

I wonder how your Perisan Baha'i family would respond to your statement.. Well enough.. You are a Bayani not an Azali.

- Art
  #776  
Old Nov 20, '09, 7:05 pm
Wahid Azal Wahid Azal is offline
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Default Bahaism is a cult

Quote:
Originally Posted by arthra View Post
Wahid Azal..

wrote above:

"And we are called BAYANIS, not Azalis (a term of derision fabricated by Abbas Effendi, your British stooge center of the covenant)."

I wonder how your Perisan Baha'i family would respond to your statement..
Was that supposed to be any kind of evidence or argument as to why Miller's career as Presbyterian Missionary to Iran makes him uncredible or that his book on your cult should not be taken as a fairly decent, introductory source -- as attested by multiple non-Bahai scholars, Denis MacEoin amongst them. Or was that a typical Haifan Bahai argumentative sleight of hand, straw man and red herring in the absence of actual argument and facts where subtle ad hom and libel are introduced as a gutless way of not having to address actual substance? What my extended family think or don't think about my statements regarding Abbas Effendi's fifth columnist activities as an agent of British imperialism is irrelevent, and, frankly, since you must know, I don't care what they think about my views on these issues in any case. I believe I have made that abundantly clear in the past on other fora.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arthra View Post
Well enough.. You are a Bayani not an Azali.

- Art
There is no such thing as Azali and never has been. There are only Bayanis. That said, my reason for being here is based on a challenge made by the alias DavidMark (aka Badi Villar Cardenas) on the comments section of this blog:
http://bahaism.blogspot.com/2009/11/....html#comments

Well, I am here. Is there anything else you wanted to say to me?

Wahid Azal

http://bahaicultfaq.blogspot.com/
  #777  
Old Nov 20, '09, 7:48 pm
Wahid Azal Wahid Azal is offline
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Default Eternity of the Universe

Quote:
Originally Posted by planten View Post
DavidMark, do you mean to say that Bahullah believed that Universe was God?. It has no beginning and no end?. We believe that Universe was created. God is the Creator. God has no beginning and no end. But Bahaullah says that Universe has no beginning and no end.

Will you please explain this matter in simple words?? God or Allah is the Khaaliq. He has created things. If Universe existed by itself without any beginning then it means it was always there (or here). And so it was not created by God.
The eternity of the universe is a standard Peripatetic/Neoplatonic point of view that exists equally among Christian, Jewish and Islamic philosophers and theosophical esotericists alike. The Baha'is did not invent this position nor are they the first to articulate it. It has been around long before Bahaism. In the Islamic world it is one of the central doctrines of Avicenna's (Ibn Sina) Neoplatonic Aristotelianism. It is also articulated in a cryptic form in several traditions (hadith) attributed to the Shi'ite Imams by Kulayni and Saffar al-Qummi. Basically God as creator (khaliq) is also the Necessary Being (wajib al-wujud). As the Necessary Being in its function of Creator, the Godhead cannot ever be in the position of not having been a creator and then one. There must be a creation already-always in order for the predicate Creator to have any consistent reality, since necessity (wujub) posits its logical corrolary of 'possibility' (imkan). If the creatio ex nihilo argument be taken literally at face value, then this posits a lack and privation in the Creator in time or succession.

This whole position however comes with the addendum metaphysics of emanationism whereby worlds and realms (usually three but in Avicenna we have ten) proceed from the Primal One, the Necessary Being, the Godhead each with their own modality of eternity and duration. The Godhead in-itself is pre-eternal (azal) and outside of any scheme of time. It's first emanation then produces its own emanation and so on and so forth down to the realm of gross matter. These emanations or Intellects are each eternal (each less superior than the one before it), but none are pre-eternal in the same way the Necessary Being is. In this scheme the universe can be eternal in temporality while being in a relationship of total dependency vis-a-vis the Necessary Being and Its pre-eternity.

Wahid Azal
  #778  
Old Nov 20, '09, 8:34 pm
planten planten is offline
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Default Re: "The Baha'i Faith"

Quote:
Originally Posted by arthra View Post
For Baha'is creation is an ongoing process that didn't stop with "the sixth day" and we believe creation preceded the "first day" of Genesis ...So the universe has neither beginning or end and means in our view that God hasn't rested..
.......
.....be decomposed. The only difference is that some are quickly decomposed, and others more slowly, but it is impossible that a composed thing should not eventually be decomposed.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 179)
Art you have not replied properly. I said if the Universe was created it should have a beginning. Or I am wrong? Tell me please.

Also by saying that God did not rest, you deny the clear words of the bibleOT. Just because God did not rest, you understand that Universe had no beginning. BibleOT saying that God created world in six days and then rested on the seventh day. It can be metaphorical and it can have other meanings, not literal. But you deny the beginning and the end.

Jesus also talked about the end. Se below:

Quote:
Christ gave three criteria that are critical:
First Sign:
And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them...this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:3-4 & 14)
Lord Jesus is also saying about the end. But Baha'is say there is no end. Can you explain all these things?? Should we take those words of genesis which say "God made...." as false? Should we take the words of Jesus about the end as false?? Explain clearly please, which one you believe, The BibleOT and Jesus or your Bahaullah??
  #779  
Old Nov 20, '09, 8:43 pm
planten planten is offline
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Default Re: "The Baha'i Faith"

To David and Art, I have noticed that you post mixed matter. Your posts do not show where your statement starts and ends and where anything from Bahaullah / Abdul Baha starts and ends.

Please try to separate your statements from those of Bahaullah and Abdul Baha. Always try to put the words of Bahaullah and Abdul Baha in wraps (quotes). I hope you will comply. So that we can have a clear reading.

All of your previous long posts are useless. Do not just bold a few words. Put the words of your leaders only in wrap quotes please. And Also if you use anything from the Quran, put that also in wrap quotes so they are clearly visible. Thanks.
  #780  
Old Nov 20, '09, 9:01 pm
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DavidMark DavidMark is offline
 
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Default Re: "The Baha'i Faith"

[quote=planten;5965669]Art you have not replied properly. I said if the Universe was created it should have a beginning. Or I am wrong? Tell me please.
Also by saying that God did not rest, you deny the clear words of the bibleOT. QUOTE]

planten: I would like to show we believe there is no beginning or end to creation; because God is eternal, and has always had all His names, one of which is The Creator.
That name presupposes a creation. God never changes; the creation is always changing. The Six Days of creation, since the historical Adam, were each a thousand years.
We are living in the "7th Day", during which the Dominion of God will inevitably encompass the Earth.

Know assuredly that God’s creation hath existed from eternity, and will continue to exist forever. Its beginning hath had no beginning, and its end knoweth no end. His name, the Creator, presupposeth a creation, even as His title, the Lord of Men, must involve the existence of a servant. ~Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

When we contemplate this vast machinery of omnipresent power, perceive this illimitable space and its innumerable worlds, it will become evident to us that the lifetime of this infinite creation is more than six thousand years; nay, it is very, very ancient. Notwithstanding this, we read in Genesis in the Old Testament that the lifetime of creation is but six thousand years. This has an inner meaning and significance; it is not to be taken literally. ~‘Abdu’l-Bahá, PUP, p. 463 [Objects exist farther than 6000 Light Years]
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