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  #1  
Old May 10, '10, 3:25 pm
Geremia Geremia is offline
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Default Is science grounded on faith?

In Aristotle's Posterior Analytics bk. 1 ch. 3, he says:
Quote:
Some hold that, owing to the necessity of knowing the primary premisses, there is no scientific knowledge. Others think there is, but that all truths are demonstrable. Neither doctrine is either true or a necessary deduction from the premisses. [...] Our own doctrine is that not all knowledge is demonstrative: on the contrary, knowledge of the immediate premisses is independent of demonstration.
To which St. Thomas Aquinas says in his Expositio Posteriorum, lib. 1 l. 7:
Quote:
Therefore, if someone were to ask how the science of immediate principles is possessed, the answer would be that not only are they known in a scientific manner, but knowledge of them is the source of a science. For one passes from the knowledge of principles to a demonstration of conclusion on which science, properly speaking, bears. But those immediate principles are not made known through an additional middle but through an understanding of their own terms. For as soon as it is known what a whole is and what a part is, it is known that every whole is greater than its part, because in such a proposition, as has been stated above, the predicate is included in the very notion of the subject. And therefore it is reasonable that the knowledge of these principles is the cause of the knowledge of conclusions, because always, that which exists in virtue of itself is the cause of that which exists in virtue of something else.
Does this mean that the "science of principles is possessed" by faith? Would not this be fideism, since it "affirms that the fundamental act of human knowledge consists in an act of faith" (Sauvage, G.)? Since St. Thomas says that "faith is more certain than science and the other intellectual virtues" (Summa Theologica IIª-IIae q. 4 a. 8), which is good if "demonstration must be based on premisses prior to and better known than the conclusion," as Aristotle said" in the above-cited chapter of his Posterior Analytics, is it proper to say "Science, therefore, is grounded on faith?" Is this a type of fideism? Read this for more background. Thanks
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  #2  
Old May 10, '10, 3:42 pm
Moonstruck888 Moonstruck888 is offline
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Default Re: Is science grounded on faith?

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Originally Posted by Geremia View Post
In Aristotle's Posterior Analytics bk. 1 ch. 3, he says:To which St. Thomas Aquinas says in his Expositio Posteriorum, lib. 1 l. 7oes this mean that the "science of principles is possessed" by faith? Would not this be fideism, since it "affirms that the fundamental act of human knowledge consists in an act of faith" (Sauvage, G.)? Since St. Thomas says that "faith is more certain than science and the other intellectual virtues" (Summa Theologica IIª-IIae q. 4 a. 8), which is good if "demonstration must be based on premisses prior to and better known than the conclusion," as Aristotle said" in the above-cited chapter of his Posterior Analytics, is it proper to say "Science, therefore, is grounded on faith?" Is this a type of fideism? Read this for more background. Thanks
I personally think that it's safe to assume that I exist as some kind of conscious process that has freedom of movement in a world with many properties of variable magnitude that can be examined and learned from.
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  #3  
Old May 10, '10, 4:23 pm
Geremia Geremia is offline
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Default Re: Is science grounded on faith?

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Originally Posted by Moonstruck888 View Post
I personally think that it's safe to assume that I exist as some kind of conscious process that has freedom of movement in a world with many properties of variable magnitude that can be examined and learned from.
I am sorry, but I have no clue how that answers my questions. Could you please elaborate? Thanks
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  #4  
Old May 10, '10, 4:27 pm
AntiTheist AntiTheist is offline
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Default Re: Is science grounded on faith?

No, science is not grounded on faith. Science is based on observable evidence and the conclusions that follow from it.

The word "faith" necessarily refers to things for which there is no evidence. For example, if there were incontrovertible evidence of the existence of god, there would be no "faith" required to believe in him.
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  #5  
Old May 10, '10, 5:33 pm
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donsnow donsnow is offline
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Default Re: Is science grounded on faith?

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Originally Posted by AntiTheist View Post
No, science is not grounded on faith. Science is based on observable evidence and the conclusions that follow from it.

The word "faith" necessarily refers to things for which there is no evidence. For example, if there were incontrovertible evidence of the existence of god, there would be no "faith" required to believe in him.

I think that your second paragraph is a commonly accepted fallacy. In Hebrews 11;1, (and what better source for defining faith than this?) in the NAB we read, "Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen."
So, faith is evidential in and of itself.

To give a secular example, we don't see the wind blow, but we do see what the wind blows.
Another secular example, is that atomic particles were an unproven idea from the fourth century BC until the mid twentieth century. That is, for 2,400 years the idea of atoms was carried by faith. So, I respectfully submit, that some science can be based on faith.
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  #6  
Old May 10, '10, 5:41 pm
AntiTheist AntiTheist is offline
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Default Re: Is science grounded on faith?

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Originally Posted by donsnow View Post
So, faith is evidential in and of itself.
It's not. The fact that Hindus have faith in their gods isn't evidence that Shiva exists. The fact that the Greeks had faith in their gods isn't evidence that Zeus exists, and so on.

You can try to redefine "evidence" and "faith" if you want, but if you're going to make them the same thing, then we might as well give up on trying to communicate in any meaningful way.

Quote:
To give a secular example, we don't see the wind blow, but we do see what the wind blows.
And yet we can detect and measure the wind. That is to say, we have *evidence* of it.

Quote:
Another secular example, is that atomic particles were an unproven idea from the fourth century BC until the mid twentieth century. That is, for 2,400 years the idea of atoms was carried by faith. So, I respectfully submit, that some science can be based on faith.
But "science" -- as we use the term today -- didn't exist until a very few hundred years ago. The idea of the atom was a philosophical concept dreamt up by ancient Greeks, not some sort of scientific finding. You're all over the place here.
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  #7  
Old May 10, '10, 5:51 pm
Just Lurking Just Lurking is offline
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Default Re: Is science grounded on faith?

Richard Dawkins actually makes some good points on why science is not like religion and/or faith.

See here.
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  #8  
Old May 10, '10, 5:55 pm
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: Is science grounded on faith?

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Originally Posted by AntiTheist View Post
No, science is not grounded on faith. Science is based on observable evidence and the conclusions that follow from it.

The word "faith" necessarily refers to things for which there is no evidence. For example, if there were incontrovertible evidence of the existence of god, there would be no "faith" required to believe in him.
Biting the Hand That Feeds You



......The silliness never ends as Coyne has now drifted into the deep end. Does Coyne not have the slightest idea of his own internal contradictions? Does Coyne not realize that he cannot simply swap his silly theistic notions for atheism or Aristotelianism without losing his proofs of evolution? The entire premise of his recent book is a belly-flop. Religion drives science and it matters.
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
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  #9  
Old May 10, '10, 6:04 pm
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: Is science grounded on faith?

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Originally Posted by AntiTheist View Post
No, science is not grounded on faith. Science is based on observable evidence and the conclusions that follow from it.

The word "faith" necessarily refers to things for which there is no evidence. For example, if there were incontrovertible evidence of the existence of god, there would be no "faith" required to believe in him.
Catholics define faith as "opening one's heart and mind to God."

Religion - means "to bind oneself to God".

If there was incontrovertible proof as you say then free will could not exist. We would be robots. God wants a free response to His love.
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

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  #10  
Old May 10, '10, 6:06 pm
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: Is science grounded on faith?

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Originally Posted by Just Lurking View Post
Richard Dawkins actually makes some good points on why science is not like religion and/or faith.

See here.
One thing Dawkins gets right is that theistic evolution cannot be real.

It is an either or proposition. Materialism or God. That is it. Atheists see it, many Catholics don't.
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

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  #11  
Old May 10, '10, 6:09 pm
AntiTheist AntiTheist is offline
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Default Re: Is science grounded on faith?

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Originally Posted by buffalo View Post
Religion drives science
Prove it.


Quote:
Catholics define faith as "opening one's heart and mind to God."
I prefer "belief without sufficient evidence," since if we had sufficient evidence, then faith would be unnecessary.

Quote:
If there was incontrovertible proof as you say then free will could not exist. We would be robots. God wants a free response to His love.
I disagree that we would be robots. If there were sufficient evidence of god, then it would be impossible to be an atheist. But a person would still be free to choose whether or not to love and worship god.

As an example, take Satan from Christian mythology: he was a being with "incontrovertible proof" that god exists and he was not a robot -- he was still free to choose not to worship that god.

So this god of yours really doesn't have a good reason for not providing sufficient evidence.
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  #12  
Old May 10, '10, 6:13 pm
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: Is science grounded on faith?

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Originally Posted by AntiTheist View Post
Prove it.


I prefer "belief without sufficient evidence," since if we had sufficient evidence, then faith would be unnecessary.

I disagree that we would be robots. If there were sufficient evidence of god, then it would be impossible to be an atheist. But a person would still be free to choose whether or not to love and worship god.

As an example, take Satan from Christian mythology: he was a being with "incontrovertible proof" that god exists and he was not a robot -- he was still free to choose not to worship that god.

So this god of yours really doesn't have a good reason for not providing sufficient evidence.

Oh, we do have sufficient evidence. Did you change your wording from proof?

God does not allow Himself to be examined on an empirical lab table for us to examine.

Have you examined the evidence?
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

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  #13  
Old May 10, '10, 6:31 pm
AntiTheist AntiTheist is offline
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Default Re: Is science grounded on faith?

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Originally Posted by buffalo View Post
Have you examined the evidence?
The "evidence"? You mean a bunch of personal experience anecdotes (i.e. getting the warm fuzzies), arguments from ignorance and incredulity, misunderstood teleological arguments, attempts to define god into existence (the "ontological argument"), applications of false dichotomy (pascal's wager), historical "evidence" from a bunch of documents written decades after supposed events and not by eyewitnesses, and a bunch of wide-eyed credulous miracle stories with no evidence?

That "evidence"? Yeah.

Things that exist manifest in some way. If your god exists, he either manifests or he's indistinguishable from something that doesn't exist.
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  #14  
Old May 10, '10, 7:27 pm
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: Is science grounded on faith?

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Originally Posted by AntiTheist View Post
The "evidence"? You mean a bunch of personal experience anecdotes (i.e. getting the warm fuzzies), arguments from ignorance and incredulity, misunderstood teleological arguments, attempts to define god into existence (the "ontological argument"), applications of false dichotomy (pascal's wager), historical "evidence" from a bunch of documents written decades after supposed events and not by eyewitnesses, and a bunch of wide-eyed credulous miracle stories with no evidence?

That "evidence"? Yeah.

Things that exist manifest in some way. If your god exists, he either manifests or he's indistinguishable from something that doesn't exist.
Which one do you have an issue you wish to discuss?

  1. The Argument from Change
  2. The Argument from Efficient Causality
  3. The Argument from Time and Contingency
  4. The Argument from Degrees of Perfection
  5. The Design Argument
  6. The Kalam Argument
  7. The Argument from Contingency
  8. The Argument from the World as an Interacting Whole
  9. The Argument from Miracles
  10. The Argument from Consciousness
  11. The Argument from Truth
  12. The Argument from the Origin of the Idea of God
  13. The Ontological Argument
  14. The Moral Argument
  15. The Argument from Conscience
  16. The Argument from Desire
  17. The Argument from Aesthetic Experience
  18. The Argument from Religious Experience
  19. The Common Consent Argument
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

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  #15  
Old May 10, '10, 7:29 pm
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: Is science grounded on faith?

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Originally Posted by AntiTheist View Post

Things that exist manifest in some way. If your god exists, he either manifests or he's indistinguishable from something that doesn't exist.
I assume you are aware of the flatlanders.

How does a 3D guy show himself to a flatlander?
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

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