Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #16  
Old Aug 17, '11, 4:25 pm
Godith Godith is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 10, 2011
Posts: 108
Religion: Christian (non-demoninational)
Default Re: Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration

What a comparison between the French priest in the video talking about love for Christ, and the accusations in the article. There's no doubt in my mind who is more godly, and it's not Mr. Gendron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Church Militant View Post
[font=Garamond]Again, not according to the Word of God, or even authentic and authoritative Catholic teaching, since nowhere in Eucharistic teaching does it refer to Christ's 2nd coming, except in in 2 passages of the New Testament. The first from Our Lord Himself and the 2nd from St. Paul's 1st letter to the Corinthians as follows. (Emphasis mine)
John 6:53-55.
[53] So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
[54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
[55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.


1st Corinthians 11:[26] For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes
I'm not sure if I can explain my question about this clearly, but here goes.

1 Corinthians 11 shows that the Real Presence in the Eucharist doesn't equate to the Second Coming of Christ. I get that. But, if Jesus is present body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist, how is that different from how He will be present when he returns to earth in the Second Coming? Then too, He will be present, body, blood, soul and divinity, surely? If Christ is present in the consecrated gifts on the altar, how has He not 'come' at that moment? Can someone help me understand the difference?

Sorry it that's a stupid question. It is a genuine one, though. I'm not intending to offend anyone, or show any disrespect.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old Aug 17, '11, 5:43 pm
Church Militant's Avatar
Church Militant Church Militant is offline
Forum Elder
Greeter
Prayer Warrior
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: November 10, 2004
Posts: 27,222
Religion: Catholic: Revert
Smile Re: Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godith View Post
What a comparison between the French priest in the video talking about love for Christ, and the accusations in the article. There's no doubt in my mind who is more godly, and it's not Mr. Gendron.
Thank you Sir!
Quote:
I'm not sure if I can explain my question about this clearly, but here goes.

1 Corinthians 11 shows that the Real Presence in the Eucharist doesn't equate to the Second Coming of Christ. I get that. But, if Jesus is present body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist, how is that different from how He will be present when he returns to earth in the Second Coming? Then too, He will be present, body, blood, soul and divinity, surely? If Christ is present in the consecrated gifts on the altar, how has He not 'come' at that moment? Can someone help me understand the difference?

Sorry it that's a stupid question. It is a genuine one, though. I'm not intending to offend anyone, or show any disrespect.
I think I understand what you mean, but keep in mind that Our Lord told us that at His 2nd coming it would be as obvious as lightening flashing from East to West. (see Matthew 24:27) That is the nature of the 2nd coming. However, if you look at 1st Corinthians 11, you can see that St. Paul obviously taught that he believed that the Eucharist makes real Christ's presence and yet there's no question or confusion with the 2nd coming, right?

Though not taught anywhere that I know of and this is just my own conjecture, I suppose one could say that in the Eucharist we experience some kind of foretaste of Christ's return, which would make it all the more of a blessed gift.

Does this help you at all?
__________________
Dominus meus et Deus meus
Michael



Apocalypsis (My blog)


Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old Aug 17, '11, 6:37 pm
wanner47's Avatar
wanner47 wanner47 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2006
Posts: 4,094
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration

I replied to this and we had an amusing e-mail exchange... which he has, so far, neglected to continue after I cornered him with how one of his beliefs clearly contradicted Scripture.
__________________
JoAnna
Tiber Swim Team Class of 2003 (click for conversion story)
Proud mom to 5 kids on earth + 3 in heaven
Blogger at CatholicWorkingMother.com and Catholic Stand
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old Aug 18, '11, 1:36 am
Church Militant's Avatar
Church Militant Church Militant is offline
Forum Elder
Greeter
Prayer Warrior
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: November 10, 2004
Posts: 27,222
Religion: Catholic: Revert
Question Re: Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by wanner47 View Post
I replied to this and we had an amusing e-mail exchange... which he has, so far, neglected to continue after I cornered him with how one of his beliefs clearly contradicted Scripture.
Excerpts?
__________________
Dominus meus et Deus meus
Michael



Apocalypsis (My blog)


Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old Aug 18, '11, 4:26 am
wanner47's Avatar
wanner47 wanner47 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2006
Posts: 4,094
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Church Militant View Post
Excerpts?
Sure.

My initial reply to his newsletter,

Quote:
It's only idolatry if the Eucharist is not the body of Christ... learn more here!

http://www.catholic.com/library/Chri..._Eucharist.asp
His responses are in green:

Quote:
Did you not read how the Scriptures prove when, where, how and why Jesus will return a 2nd time, not every day.
Mike Gendron
Quote:
I did, and I wholeheartedly disagree with your personal interpretation of those Scriptures, especially given that they conflict with the early Church fathers (the disciples of the Apostles).

Did you not read my link, which explains why your interpretation is incorrect?

http://www.catholic.com/library/Chri..._Eucharist.asp

Another good resource you might want to check out is "This is My Body: An Evangelical Discovers the Real Presence" by Mark Shea.

See, I take Jesus as His word in John 6. Do you think He was a liar when he called His flesh true food and his blood true drink?
Quote:
How do you interpret Heb. 9:28?
Yes I read your words of men, I submit to the Word of God.
Quote:
I submit to the Word of God too -- especially when it tells me to listen to the Church. It seems you don't submit to the Word of God in that respect, Mike. Although when I was a Protestant, I conveniently skipped over that verse, too.

Regarding Hebrews 9:28, I encourage you to read the following:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0309sbs.asp

Specifically (emphasis mine),

You might also agree that his blood in heaven is presented to God the Father as an acceptable sacrifice for our sins. This seems to be what Paul is teaching in several passages. For example, in Hebrews 9:12, he says that Christ "entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing eternal redemption." Then 9:14 goes on to say that Christ "offered himself without blemish to God." This is no doubt why it is possible for Paul to say in 10:19 that Christians can "have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus." Now, if Christ’s body and blood in heaven can be applied to sinners on earth without repetition of his sacrificial death when they believe on him, why can’t he be present on earth in the Eucharist forgiving sins without any repetition of his death?
Quote:
I ask you how you interpret the plain meaning of a verse and you refuse. You don't know your Bible - nowhere does it say listen to the church. Instead it encourages us to test even an apostles's teaching with Scripture Acts 17:11
Quote:
Mike, I gave you my interpretation, which is the same interpretation held by the Catholic Church (the same interpretation used for 2,000 years!).

The Bible doesn't say to listen to the Church? Is your Bible missing the book of Matthew, by any chance?

If your brother sins, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that "every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses". If he refuses to listen to them, tell the Church. If he refuses to listen even to the Church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Mt 18:15-18).

Jesus also said to the Apostles, "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16). This pertains to the Church authority today, especially the successors of the Apostles (the Bishops) and the successor of Peter (the Pope).

What about 2 Peter 3:16, Mike? How does that square, in your view, with Acts 17:11? Seems to me that your interpretation of Acts 17:11 contradicts 2 Peter 3:16. Or is 2 Peter 3:16 one of the parts of the Bible you like to ignore (just like John 6 and Matthew 18:15-18)?
Since then.... no response. Notice how he refused to directly address any of my questions and tried to reframe the argument each time. He never addresses any of the Bible verses I ask him to explain, but merely tosses out others in an attempt to throw me off. He also tries to accuse me of not answering his questions, which is truly ironic.
__________________
JoAnna
Tiber Swim Team Class of 2003 (click for conversion story)
Proud mom to 5 kids on earth + 3 in heaven
Blogger at CatholicWorkingMother.com and Catholic Stand
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old Aug 18, '11, 4:56 am
thomas jd thomas jd is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2009
Posts: 781
Religion: Catholic Professed Lay-Carmelite
Default Re: Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Church Militant View Post
Congress on Eucharistic Adoration meets in Rome

Video is above. Notice who the real deceiver is...
"Reverse the Reformation" is a desperate attempt at justification of a religion developed without Authority! To try and tie into the Church thru such statements is a pitiful attempt to legitimize false teachings!
The "reformation" was neither a reform nor a part of church teachings but rather a attack and plunder of the Church.
The above writer will soon meet " The Real Presence in the Eucharist" face to face.

" psalm 144 : " Man is like a breath, his days are like a passing shadow."
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old Aug 18, '11, 5:08 am
wanner47's Avatar
wanner47 wanner47 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2006
Posts: 4,094
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration

Heh, figures, Mike just responded. *sigh*

Quote:
Interesting you bring up 2 Pet 3:16 since that is exactly what your popes and bishops have to do - twist and distort the Scriptures to give credence to ungodly traditions such as Purgatory. 1 John 1:7 destroys purgatory unless you twist its meaning. How do you interpret it?

This is what Jesus did for BELIEVERS so that we will not be deceived by false religions.
I need nothing else.

• He testified to the truth. Truth seekers will listen to Him (John 18:37)
• He came from heaven as the only way back to the Father (John 14:6)
• He provided the only way for them to be saved (Acts 4:12)
• He came to give life to people who are spiritually dead (John 14:6)
• He bore our sin in His body on a tree (1 Peter 2:24)
• He gave His righteousness in exchange for all of our sins (2 Cor. 5:21)
• He forgave all our sins by canceling the eternal sin debt (Col. 2:13-14)
• He expiated our sins such that God will never count them against us (Heb. 9:26; Rom. 4:6-8)
• He redeemed us from being slaves to sin and Satan (Gal. 3:10-14, 22; 2 Tim. 2:25)
• He died for the ungodly, the just for the unjust (Romans 5:6; 1 Pet.3:18)
• He suffered the wrath of God so that we may be with HIm forever.(1 Thes. 5:10)
• He reconciled us to God, changing our relationship from one of hostility to one of harmony and peace (Eph. 2:14-18)
• He gave His life as a ransom for many (Matthew 20:28)
• He gave Himself as a sacrifice to God completely satisfying (propitiating) divine justice (Eph. 5:2; 1 John 2:2)
• He shed His blood to purify His people from all sin. (Titus 2:14; 1 John 1:9)
• He died for sins, once for all, to bring us to God. (1 Peter 3:18)
• He saved us from condemnation. (John 3:18, 5:24)
• He delivered us from darkness and the dominion of Satan into His glorious light (Acts 26:18; 1 Pet. 2:9; 1 John 3:8)
• He transferred us into His kingdom. (Col. 1:13; 2 Tim. 4:18)
My response:

Quote:
Why do you refuse to answer my question, Mike? How do you square 2: Peter 3:16 with your interpretation of Acts 17:11? It seems to me that the two contradict one another, given your interpretations.

Regarding Purgatory, John Martignoni has already (quite expertly, I might add) proven on you false there, so I'll just echo his sentiments: http://www.biblechristiansociety.com...ils.php?id=194

I'm glad you believe in Christ. I'm glad you know He died for your sins. (I believe the same, and I renew my commitment to Him weekly, at each and every Mass, when I do as He instructed in John 6 and eat His body and blood).

I just wish you listened to Him when He told you to listen to His Church (again, you've never responded to those verses in Matthew - do you agree with me that Christ instructed us to listen to the Church?).
__________________
JoAnna
Tiber Swim Team Class of 2003 (click for conversion story)
Proud mom to 5 kids on earth + 3 in heaven
Blogger at CatholicWorkingMother.com and Catholic Stand
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old Aug 18, '11, 6:21 am
Saintlucy's Avatar
Saintlucy Saintlucy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2008
Posts: 8,381
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite)
Default Re: Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by wanner47 View Post
Heh, figures, Mike just responded. *sigh*



My response:
I notice that nowhere in his list does he quote John:6. Maybe he has a faulty bible.
__________________
Dear St. Michael, the Archangel, protect us, both body and soul from the Evil One, his followers and anyone who would approach us with malicious intent.

Pax et Bonum.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old Aug 18, '11, 7:55 am
wanner47's Avatar
wanner47 wanner47 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2006
Posts: 4,094
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration

I guess all I have to do to get Mike to respond is to post on CAF about it.

Quote:
No he did not say to listen to His Church, if you want to know the truth this is what He said to do John 8:31-32, 14:6, 17:17 but you probably distort the interpretations.

Words don't have meaning to Martignoni, he is blinded from the glory of Christ by Satan 2 Cor. 4:4
Quote:
Mike, what about these verses from Matthew (emphasis mine)?

If your brother sins, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that "every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses". If he refuses to listen to them, tell the Church. If he refuses to listen even to the Church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 18:15-18).

John 8:31-32 - “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” Absolutely! The Catholic Church believes this 100% and teaches this as well. However, one of Jesus' teachings was to listen to the Church (see above). Why do you not believe that teaching? Another of His teachings was to eat His flesh and drink His blood (John 6:53-58). Why do you ignore that teaching?

John 14:6 - "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" Absolutely! The Catholic Church also believes and teaches this 100%.

John 17:17 - "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth." Absolutely! And some Jesus' words, as per Matthew, are to listen to His Church; others are to eat His flesh and drink His blood. Why do you ignore His words of truth?

Why do you say that "words don't have meaning" to Martignoni? I read his responses to your assertions and they seemed both logical and coherent. Can you tell me, specifically, why he is wrong with each of his rebuttals? He seems to make a very good case for the fact that YOU twist and distort the Scriptures.

http://www.biblechristiansociety.com...ils.php?id=194

Regarding 2 Corinthians 4:4 - "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

Why do you call Martignoni an unbeliever?

If he believes that Christ has died, Christ has risen, and Christ will come again (as we proclaim at each Mass), doesn't that make him a believer? If he recites the Nicene Creed at Mass every Sunday (as I do) and believes it with his whole heart (as I do), isn't he a believer? Again, why do you call him an unbeliever if he believes that Chris died for our sins and rose again, and now reigns in heaven? Seems to me that's the very definition of a believer in Christ, even if you and he disagree on aspects of theology.
__________________
JoAnna
Tiber Swim Team Class of 2003 (click for conversion story)
Proud mom to 5 kids on earth + 3 in heaven
Blogger at CatholicWorkingMother.com and Catholic Stand
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old Aug 18, '11, 7:55 am
wanner47's Avatar
wanner47 wanner47 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2006
Posts: 4,094
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration

Quote:
Mormons believe what Martignoni believes and they are just as lost. The Gospel is the power of God for all who believe (Rom. 1:16). what is the one and only Gospel (Gal. 1:6-9). Nothing can be added to the finished, sufficient, perfect work of Christ.

God saves sinners ONLY by grace which means no human merit or works or law keeping can be added to what Christ accomplished. Do you even know how many requirements the RCC has added to the Gospel of grace? If the Judaizers were condemned for adding circumcision, the RCC is condemned 7 times over for adding baptism, sacraments, good works, law keeping, indulgences, purgatory and the Mass as requirements for salvation.
Quote:
Mormons believe what Martignoni believes and they are just as lost. The Gospel is the power of God for all who believe (Rom. 1:16). what is the one and only Gospel (Gal. 1:6-9).

Actually, Mormons don't believe what Catholics believe. I'd advise you to study the doctrines of each religion a bit more, because your assumptions are very off-base. See this article for more information about the polytheistic beliefs of Mormons, and how the Christ they proclaim is not the Christ of the Bible: http://www.catholic.com/library/Gods...mon_Church.asp

Nothing can be added to the finished, sufficient, perfect work of Christ.

It is entirely correct in terms of Catholic doctrine to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us.

God saves sinners ONLY by grace which means no human merit or works or law keeping can be added to what Christ accomplished.

Absolutely! The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is by grace alone, by faith working through love.

Do you even know how many requirements the RCC has added to the Gospel of grace?

None that Christ and/or his Apostles did not already teach.

If the Judaizers were condemned for adding circumcision, the RCC is condemned 7 times over for adding baptism, sacraments, good works, law keeping, indulgences, purgatory and the Mass as requirements for salvation.

You believe that baptism is not required for salvation? Doesn't that contradict Scripture? "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

How can purgatory be a requirement for salvation? If you are in purgatory, it means you have already been saved and are in the process of being "washed clean" of the attachment to sin prior to seeing God. By definition, purgatory can only happen AFTER salvation and thus has no affect whatsoever on attaining salvation. Your statement makes no sense whatsoever to anyone who has a basic knowledge of Catholic doctrine.

It appears, Mike, that you are confused as to the differences between justification (what saves us) and sanctification (what sanctifies us, or makes us holy). Most of what you list above applies to our continued sanctification as opposed to our justification. This article is an excellent explanation of the difference: http://www.catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp
__________________
JoAnna
Tiber Swim Team Class of 2003 (click for conversion story)
Proud mom to 5 kids on earth + 3 in heaven
Blogger at CatholicWorkingMother.com and Catholic Stand
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old Aug 18, '11, 8:24 am
pablope pablope is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2010
Posts: 8,347
Religion: catholic
Default Re: Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration

Good Job, Joana....

I am learning from your posts too...keep em coming. God bless your efforts.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old Aug 18, '11, 8:41 am
wanner47's Avatar
wanner47 wanner47 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2006
Posts: 4,094
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration

Quote:
Your false religion teaches justification is apart from personal faith as in infant baptism and regeneration occurs at the same time which denies the sovereign grace of God. Where in the Bible is ANYONE justified w/o personal faith?????????
Quote:
Actually, the Catholic Church does not teach that justification is apart from personal faith. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, all emphasis mine:

Quote:
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent...
and

Quote:
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits" - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
Mike, again, how does 2 Peter 3:16 square with your interpretation of Acts 17:11? You've never answered that very simple question; you keep bringing up other topics. I'm more than happy to discuss these issues with you but I would appreciate an answer to my original question.
pablope, I'm glad the exchange has been helpful for you. I hesitated posting it at first lest anyone think I was trying to "toot my own horn," but I just hope it helps anyone who may be facing these questions from other Protestants.
__________________
JoAnna
Tiber Swim Team Class of 2003 (click for conversion story)
Proud mom to 5 kids on earth + 3 in heaven
Blogger at CatholicWorkingMother.com and Catholic Stand
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old Aug 18, '11, 11:17 am
Church Militant's Avatar
Church Militant Church Militant is offline
Forum Elder
Greeter
Prayer Warrior
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: November 10, 2004
Posts: 27,222
Religion: Catholic: Revert
Cool Re: Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration


Great Horny Toads! That boy...I say, that boy ain't right!

Seriously though...all this when you wrote him about this message? Really? And he can't seem to stay on topic can he?

And then he simply shifts over to rhetoric and polemics rather than actually address your point of the conflict between his interpretation and the actual Word of God.

And they actually pay this guy for this kind of stuff? Really?


__________________
Dominus meus et Deus meus
Michael



Apocalypsis (My blog)


Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old Aug 18, '11, 11:26 am
Church Militant's Avatar
Church Militant Church Militant is offline
Forum Elder
Greeter
Prayer Warrior
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: November 10, 2004
Posts: 27,222
Religion: Catholic: Revert
Default Re: Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by wanner47 View Post
pablope, I'm glad the exchange has been helpful for you. I hesitated posting it at first lest anyone think I was trying to "toot my own horn," but I just hope it helps anyone who may be facing these questions from other Protestants.
Especially n-Cs who have been unfortunate enough to be misled by this guy's teaching.
__________________
Dominus meus et Deus meus
Michael



Apocalypsis (My blog)


Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old Aug 18, '11, 11:31 am
wanner47's Avatar
wanner47 wanner47 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2006
Posts: 4,094
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration

Looks like he's taking his toys and going home...

Quote:
Infants who are baptized have no faith yet read Paragraph 1266 " The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues." Now will you acknowledge your false religion speaks out of both sides of its mouth and cannot be trusted?
Quote:
Mike, again, how does 2 Peter 3:16 square with your interpretation of Acts 17:11? You've never answered that very simple question; you keep bringing up other topics. I'm more than happy to discuss these issues with you but I would appreciate an answer to my original question.

Regarding your question, we were talking about personal faith being required for justification, not for reception of the sacrament of baptism when one is below the age of reason. You claimed the Church taught that personal faith was not required for justification. I proved your claim false with my quotes from the Catechism.

Will you admit that you were wrong when you accused the Church of teaching that personal faith is not required for justification?

Additionally, you need to read up a few passages in the Catechism:

The Baptism of infants

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53

If you believe that personal faith is required for baptism, do you also believe that all children who die prior to baptism are in hell? I've had two miscarriages; are my children, who died before they could be born, now burning in hell since they never received baptism?
Quote:
I do not have any more time with someone who cannot respond logically or rationally.
Quote:
What about my response has not been logical or rational? You don't rebut my arguments at all, or try to show my why they are illogical; you merely bring up a different topic.

I'm really interested to know your opinion of my two questions:

(1) How do you square your interpretation of Acts 17:11 with 2 Peter 3:16?

(2) Are the children I miscarried currently burning in hell because they were not baptized?

It seems to me that if you knew your faith as well as you claim to do, you would have no problems responding to my points.
__________________
JoAnna
Tiber Swim Team Class of 2003 (click for conversion story)
Proud mom to 5 kids on earth + 3 in heaven
Blogger at CatholicWorkingMother.com and Catholic Stand
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Tags
anti-catholicism, eucharistis adoration, gendron

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
6652CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: tawny
6278Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: hazcompat
5222Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
4631Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4332Poems and Reflections
Last by: Purgatory Pete
4055OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: Fischli
3295For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: GLam8833
3261Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Herculees
2831Let's Empty Purgatory 2
Last by: Jeannie52
2449SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 6:40 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.