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  #16  
Old Dec 28, '11, 6:41 pm
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Default Re: Is birth control permissible if it will save a womasns life

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Originally Posted by Barbkw View Post


Of course a woman with such heavy periods would never be able to live through the pain of pregnancy and childbirth - hence the continual need for ABC.
Wow. Just, wow. Of course, little things like getting through school and being able to hold down a job or care for existing children or not needing blood transfusions mean nothing to you. Is the whole idea that normal functioning can go so haywire sometimes as to require medical intervention so foreign to ppl?
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  #17  
Old Dec 28, '11, 6:44 pm
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Default Re: Is birth control permissible if it will save a womasns life

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Originally Posted by Blenderx View Post
Wow. Just, wow.
Exactly what I was thinking. Maybe something to do with a heavy period? That's borderline harassment (incessant statements that barbkw has made in this thread), and is way over the line for rudeness and incivility.
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  #18  
Old Dec 28, '11, 6:45 pm
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Default Re: Is birth control permissible if it will save a womasns life

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Originally Posted by catholictiger View Post
I may be wrong but there are three things that go into determining if an act is wrong or right

intent
action
result
This is contrary to Catholic teaching.
  #19  
Old Dec 28, '11, 6:50 pm
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Default Re: Is birth control permissible if it will save a womasns life

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Originally Posted by Leegal View Post
There is an exception. ABC can be used by a woman having heavy, painful and irregular periods. However, the woman is not use the ABC in order to prevent pregnancy, but to alleviate another legtimate medical condition. The ABC can be used to correct a medical problem, but not prevent to, primarily, prevent conception. Humanae Vitae, Article 15.

Lawful Therapeutic Means

15. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever.

That would include the pill only as other methods have a singular purpose and that's to prevent conception. The pill can have a licit medical purpose, for example those women who have too frequent periods or irregular periods caused by a hormonal imbalance.

Wanted to add, that if the doctor advises a woman that her life is in danger if she gets pregnant again, that would not be a therepeutic use to use the pill. The solution is abstinence or NFP, which offers no guarantee.

She should really speak with her priest/confessor about this.
Yes, this is a correct exception. Thank you. I should have been more clear, but I was directly answering the OP's question as to whether she could take ABC to prevent having a child (even though she had a medical condition, not necessarily one that might be remedied through the use of ABC).
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  #20  
Old Dec 28, '11, 6:53 pm
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Default Re: Is birth control permissible if it will save a womasns life

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Originally Posted by Castello View Post
This is contrary to Catholic teaching.
could you show me this teaching

because in the situation of eptomic pregnancy if you think the result of the death of a baby would make all solutions to this problem immoral then you pretty much say let the mother die

again to save a mothers life in eptomic pregnancy would be to remove the womb.

the intent is to save the mothers life
the action is saving the life of the mother
but the result is the saving the life of the mother but ending the life of the unborn child.

if you just look at the result the act is immoral, but the action and intent is moral. Because of the situation there is no result that is in itself a moral act, but because the action and the intent is moral the act is moral.

actions that include mixed stuff like this is difficult in these situations

again If I'm wrong and the Church teaches that the results should determine the act or something like that I will take back what I said. and admit I was speaking out of ignorance of church teaching.
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  #21  
Old Dec 28, '11, 7:05 pm
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Default Re: Is birth control permissible if it will save a womasns life

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Originally Posted by catholictiger View Post
I may be wrong but there are three things that go into determining if an act is wrong or right

intent
action
result

for example if the intent is to save a life, and the action is to save a life, but the result is preventing a pregnancy, then the act I think is morally ok.

for example an empathic pregnancy, I think that's what it is called anyway.

the only morally correct action would be to remove the womb, if that were to save the mothers life

now the intent is to save the mothers life
the action saves the mothers life
but the result is the baby dying but also the women living

but just because you end the life of the baby, because the action and intent isn't to end the life of the baby the action is morally ok.

I think this is correct anyway
I think you meant "grave matter," "full knowledge," and "deliberate consent" as the three conditions for a mortal sin.

Dealing with an ectopic pregnancy by removing the affected portion of the fallopian tube or ovary, with the unintended consequence of losing the unborn baby is not a mortal sin.

For one who has a preexisting medical condition where becoming pregnant or delivering a baby would result in the death of the mother, it's a different matter. Especially without knowing the specific condition, it's nearly impossible to give guidance on a comparable medical procedure. If the OP is asking if the woman can use ABC to prevent a pregnancy, with our limited knowledge of the situation, the answer should be "no." If she has a medical condition that could be remedied by ABC, with the unintended side effect of preventing pregnancy, then that is something she and her doctor should discuss, but no sin has been committed.
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  #22  
Old Dec 28, '11, 7:08 pm
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Default Re: Is birth control permissible if it will save a womasns life

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Originally Posted by Barbkw View Post
Never understood this exception and I even doubt the actual truth of it.

Nearly all women have heavy, painful and irregular periods. It's a part of being a women.
Nearly all? I would strongly disagree!! Almost all my female friends are or were very regular with some mild bloating, but that's about it! You would be able to calibrate a calendar by my cycles! No pain.

If you have heavy painful irregular cycles, you may want to consult your doctor...that is not normal!
  #23  
Old Dec 28, '11, 7:10 pm
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Default Re: Is birth control permissible if it will save a womasns life

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Originally Posted by pamnbam View Post
I think you meant "grave matter," "full knowledge," and "deliberate consent" as the three conditions for a mortal sin.

Dealing with an ectopic pregnancy by removing the affected portion of the fallopian tube or ovary, with the unintended consequence of losing the unborn baby is not a mortal sin.

For one who has a preexisting medical condition where becoming pregnant or delivering a baby would result in the death of the mother, it's a different matter. Especially without knowing the specific condition, it's nearly impossible to give guidance on a comparable medical procedure. If the OP is asking if the woman can use ABC to prevent a pregnancy, with our limited knowledge of the situation, the answer should be "no." If she has a medical condition that could be remedied by ABC, with the unintended side effect of preventing pregnancy, then that is something she and her doctor should discuss, but no sin has been committed.
not what I'm talking about

talking about what makes an action licit or illicit. its possible for someone to act in a way that the result could be considered illicit but because of the action and intent it is considered licit.

in terms of the OP

the intent may be to save the mothers life but the action and result it to prevent pregnancy because of this, the action is illicit.
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  #24  
Old Dec 28, '11, 7:55 pm
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Default Re: Is birth control permissible if it will save a womasns life

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Originally Posted by catholictiger View Post
could you show me this teaching

because in the situation of eptomic pregnancy if you think the result of the death of a baby would make all solutions to this problem immoral then you pretty much say let the mother die

again to save a mothers life in eptomic pregnancy would be to remove the womb.

the intent is to save the mothers life
the action is saving the life of the mother
but the result is the saving the life of the mother but ending the life of the unborn child.

if you just look at the result the act is immoral, but the action and intent is moral. Because of the situation there is no result that is in itself a moral act, but because the action and the intent is moral the act is moral.

actions that include mixed stuff like this is difficult in these situations

again If I'm wrong and the Church teaches that the results should determine the act or something like that I will take back what I said. and admit I was speaking out of ignorance of church teaching.
2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.
  #25  
Old Dec 28, '11, 8:01 pm
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Default Re: Is birth control permissible if it will save a womasns life

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Originally Posted by Castello View Post
2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.
I wasn't clear I wasn't exactly addressing the OP

I was saying how you determine the licitness of an action

was the intent licit
was the action take licit
was the result licit

it is possible to have a licit action and intent but not result but the act overall is licit.

I gave the example of a eptomic pregnancy.

the result is the loose of a life due to medical procedures. But because the action was to save the mothers life and the intent was to save the mothers life the act itself is licit.

If ABC is used to prevent pregnancy it is always illicit.

But ABC can be used in a way that it would be licit.

that is if the action and intent is not to prevent pregnancy but something else.
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  #26  
Old Dec 28, '11, 8:09 pm
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Default Re: Is birth control permissible if it will save a womasns life

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Originally Posted by Barbkw View Post
Never understood this exception and I even doubt the actual truth of it.

Nearly all women have heavy, painful and irregular periods. It's a part of being a women.
Not really. Having, heavy, painful and irregular periods could be due to many things, from polycystic ovaries, to hormonal imballance, to endometriosis.

Birth Control pills are frequently given to alleviate these symptoms. Usually they just mask the symptoms, and not heal the problem, and other ethical solutions are available.
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  #27  
Old Dec 29, '11, 3:40 am
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Default Re: Is birth control permissible if it will save a womasns life

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Originally Posted by catholictiger View Post
not what I'm talking about

talking about what makes an action licit or illicit. its possible for someone to act in a way that the result could be considered illicit but because of the action and intent it is considered licit.

in terms of the OP

the intent may be to save the mothers life but the action and result it to prevent pregnancy because of this, the action is illicit.
I think we're saying pretty much the same thing with respect to an ectopic pregnancy. The only difference is that we don't know what medical condition we're dealing with for the OP. If the unintended consequence of using ABC to treat a medical condition is preventing pregnancy, then using it is licit. But we don't know if ABC is the correct course of treatment for her condition. We just don't know that...and we can't assume that it would be the solution if we don't know the problem, that's all. But I think we mean the same thing here.
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  #28  
Old Dec 29, '11, 4:44 am
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Default Re: Is birth control permissible if it will save a womasns life

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Originally Posted by pamnbam View Post
I think we're saying pretty much the same thing with respect to an ectopic pregnancy. The only difference is that we don't know what medical condition we're dealing with for the OP. If the unintended consequence of using ABC to treat a medical condition is preventing pregnancy, then using it is licit. But we don't know if ABC is the correct course of treatment for her condition. We just don't know that...and we can't assume that it would be the solution if we don't know the problem, that's all. But I think we mean the same thing here.
alright I was trying to talk about things in general, as hopes to help answer the op.

but Its straight forward

if the OP is using ABC to prevent pregnancy in order so that she won't get pregnant and die it would be immoral because there are other ways to prevent pregnancy without ABC

but if the OP is using ABC to prevent her own death but the consequence is preventing pregnancy it is licit or moral.
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  #29  
Old Dec 29, '11, 5:22 am
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Default Re: Is birth control permissible if it will save a womasns life

It's frightening to me to think of someone relying on the pill to prevent pregnancy in a life threatening situation (where the mother would die) because I know so many babies that were conceived while there mother's were on the pill.

Even if you separated it from the morality, it's not as if women don't get pregnant on the pill. And what would you do then? Abort?
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Old Dec 29, '11, 5:47 am
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Default Re: Is birth control permissible if it will save a womasns life

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Originally Posted by RedSoxWife View Post
It's frightening to me to think of someone relying on the pill to prevent pregnancy in a life threatening situation (where the mother would die) because I know so many babies that were conceived while there mother's were on the pill.

Even if you separated it from the morality, it's not as if women don't get pregnant on the pill. And what would you do then? Abort?
Agreed.
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