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  #1  
Old Jan 2, '08, 12:58 pm
angelusm angelusm is offline
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Default Are most Jews really Jews?

As far as I'm concerned, vast majority of "Jews" are not Jews, they are Khazars, ancestors of a Turkic tribe that accepted judaism as their religion and became "Ashkenazi Jews". As a result, can they call themselves the chosen nation? Do they have the moral right to rule Palestine if most of them have no semitic origin?
Funny thing is that Khazars' descendants believe that judaism is their "national" religion. A special relation between judaism and being a Jew doesn't seem to make much sense as foreigners are majority of Jews.
I think it's very important that in this case religion for most of "Jews" is not something "given" by God but it's a matter of choice. Their ancestors made a decision and so can they. Obviously they will be called traitors, especially if they become Catholic. But I think that conscience that they are not (or not necessarily) real Jews can be helpful when making decision of conversion.
God bless
  #2  
Old Jan 2, '08, 2:40 pm
Valke2 Valke2 is offline
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Default Re: Are most Jews really Jews?

Most Jews are really Jews. In fact, all jews are really jews. Now go study.
  #3  
Old Jan 2, '08, 2:42 pm
puzzleannie puzzleannie is offline
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Default Re: Are most Jews really Jews?

Quote:
Originally Posted by angelusm View Post
As far as I'm concerned, vast majority of "Jews" are not Jews, they are Khazars,
I am unable to locate the document, decision or decree by the rabbis where you have been appointed to decide who is and is not a Jew. I think they can handle that job themselves, without help from you, me or this forum.
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  #4  
Old Jan 2, '08, 2:43 pm
mschrank mschrank is offline
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Default Re: Are most Jews really Jews?

Quote:
Originally Posted by angelusm View Post
As far as I'm concerned, vast majority of "Jews" are not Jews, they are Khazars, ancestors of a Turkic tribe that accepted judaism as their religion and became "Ashkenazi Jews". As a result, can they call themselves the chosen nation?
God bless
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valke2 View Post
Most Jews are really Jews. In fact, all jews are really jews. Now go study.
Forbidden question asked! Such discussion is not allowed!

Ve hav vays of (not) making yeu talk!
  #5  
Old Jan 2, '08, 10:55 pm
Quackers Quackers is offline
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Default Re: Are most Jews really Jews?

Quote:
Originally Posted by angelusm View Post
As far as I'm concerned, vast majority of "Jews" are not Jews, they are Khazars, ancestors of a Turkic tribe that accepted judaism as their religion and became "Ashkenazi Jews".
I sincerely doubt your opinion, or mine for that matter, matters. Jews are capable of deciding for themselves who is and is not Jewish. Would you appreciate it if someone questioned your standing as a Catholic, or accused you of not being Catholic? The branches of Judaism have guidelines for conversion whereby non-Jews are declared Jewish. Maybe you should go study, as another poster suggested.
  #6  
Old Jan 3, '08, 1:45 am
angelusm angelusm is offline
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Default Re: Are most Jews really Jews?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valke2 View Post
Most Jews are really Jews. In fact, all jews are really jews. Now go study.
No facts? No statistics? Nothing else to say? Maybe it means you should go study?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mschrank View Post
Forbidden question asked! Such discussion is not allowed!

Ve hav vays of (not) making yeu talk!
That’s a good one!!! I really like it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quackers View Post
I sincerely doubt your opinion, or mine for that matter, matters. Jews are capable of deciding for themselves who is and is not Jewish. Would you appreciate it if someone questioned your standing as a Catholic, or accused you of not being Catholic? The branches of Judaism have guidelines for conversion whereby non-Jews are declared Jewish. Maybe you should go study, as another poster suggested.
Nationality is something different from religion. Not every person whose religion is judaism is Jewish. If I become shinto it doesn’t mean I immediately become Japanese as well.
  #7  
Old Jan 3, '08, 2:37 am
jfallaw jfallaw is offline
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Default Re: Are most Jews really Jews?

Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Obviously doesn't apply to non-Christians, but I think that it tells us God now doesn't really care what 'race' you are- all are welcome to come to Christ. I'm curious as to why it matters to you if Jews are really Jews? Seems political- which is for another forum, i think.
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  #8  
Old Jan 3, '08, 3:36 am
Valke2 Valke2 is offline
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Default Re: Are most Jews really Jews?

Quote:
Originally Posted by angelusm View Post
No facts? No statistics? Nothing else to say? Maybe it means you should go study?
fine. I did a little studying:


The theory that the majority of Ashkenazic Jews are the descendants of the non-Semitic converted Khazars was advocated by various Revisionist History and otherwise Antisemitic circles towards the end of the 20th century, especially following the publication of Arthur Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe. Since Ashkenazi Jews make up the majority of world Jewry, such speculation is often held in conjunction with the belief that modern day Jews are not the true descendants of the Ancient Israelites, and that contemporary Jewry has no rightful claim to the land of the State of Israel. This thesis is usually advanced in the context of the political conflict between Israel and Palestinians to promote Muslim claims to Israeli territory. Despite recent contrary genetic evidence[10] , and a lack of any real mainstream scholarly support, this belief is still popular among groups such as the Christian Identity Movement, Black Hebrews, British Israelitists and others who claim that they are the descendants of Israel instead of the Jews and seek to downplay the connection between the Jewish people and their Israelite ancestors.
Sources, as provided by wikipedia:

^ Behar, Doron M.; Ene Metspalu, Toomas Kivisild, Alessandro Achilli, Yarin Hadid, Shay Tzur, Luisa Pereira, Antonio Amorim, Lluı's Quintana-Murci, Kari Majamaa, Corinna Herrnstadt, Neil Howell, Oleg Balanovsky, Ildus Kutuev, Andrey Pshenichnov, David Gurwitz, Batsheva Bonne-Tamir, Antonio Torroni, Richard Villems, and Karl Skorecki (March 2006). "The Matrilineal Ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry: Portrait of a Recent Founder Event". The American Journal of Human Genetics 78 (3): 487-97. PMID 16404693
  #9  
Old Jan 3, '08, 3:42 am
Valke2 Valke2 is offline
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Default Re: Are most Jews really Jews?

Some more detail:

The theory that Ashkenazi Jews might be descended from Khazars dates back to the late nineteenth century, and is frequently cited to claim modern Jews are not Israelites and/or to question Israeli claims to territory also sought by Palestinians. It was first publicly proposed in lecture given by Ernest Renan on January 27, 1883, titled "Judaism as a Race and as Religion." It was popularized by racial theorist Lothrop Stoddard in a 1926 article in the Forum titled "The Pedigree of Judah", where he argued that Ashkenazi Jews were a mix of people, of which the Khazars were a primary element. Stoddard's views were "based on nineteenth and twentieth-century concepts of race, in which small variations on facial features as well as presumed accompanying character traits were deemed to pass from generation to generation, subject only to the corrupting effects of marriage with members of other groups, the result of which would lower the superior stock without raising the inferior partners." This theory was adopted by British Israelites, who saw it as a means of invalidating the claims of Jews (rather than themselves) to be the true descendants of the ancient Israelites, and was supported by early anti-Zionists.

In 1951 Southern Methodist University professor John O. Beaty published The Iron Curtain over America, a work which claimed that "Khazar Jews" were "responsible for all of America's - and the world's - ills beginning with World War I". The book repeated a number of familiar antisemitic claims, placing responsibility for U.S. involvement in World Wars I and II and the Bolshevik revolution on these Khazars, and insisting that Khazar Jews were attempting to subvert Western Christianity and establish communism throughout the world. The American millionaire J. Russell Maguire gave money towards its promotion, and it was met with enthusiasm by hate groups and the extreme right. By the 1960s the Khazar theory had become a "firm article of faith" amongst Christian Identity groups. In 1971 Glubb Pasha also took up this theme, insisting that Palestinians were more closely related to the ancient Judeans than were Jews.

The theory gained further support when the novelist Arthur Koestler devoted his popular book The Thirteenth Tribe (1976) to the topic. ,,,, His discussion of theories about Ashkenazi descent is largely unsupported; to the extent that Koestler referred to place-names and documentary evidence his analysis has been described as a mixture of flawed etymologies and misinterpreted primary sources. Commentors have also noted that Koestler mischaracterized the sources he cited, particularly D.M. Dunlop's History of the Jewish Khazars (1954).


In the 1970s and 80s the Khazar theory was also advanced used by some Russian chauvinist antisemites, particularly the historian Lev Gumilyov, who portrayed "Judeo-Khazars" as having repeatedly sabotaged Russia's development since the 7th century.

According to Bernard Lewis:

This theory… is supported by no evidence whatsoever. It has long since been abandoned by all serious scholars in the field, including those in Arab countries, where the Khazar theory is little used except in occasional political polemics.[29]
  #10  
Old Jan 3, '08, 3:43 am
Valke2 Valke2 is offline
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Default Re: Are most Jews really Jews?

Finally, I'll just say that it wouldn't matter to me as a Jew whether I am descended from converts or the "original Israelites". Nor would it effect the UN Mandate establishing Israel as a nation and national home for Jewish people.
  #11  
Old Jan 3, '08, 3:49 am
wifeandmomoftwo wifeandmomoftwo is offline
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Default Re: Are most Jews really Jews?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valke2 View Post
Finally, I'll just say that it wouldn't matter to me as a Jew whether I am descended from converts or the "original Israelites". Nor would it effect the UN Mandate establishing Israel as a nation and national home for Jewish people.
I want a UN Mandate establishing a nation and national home for Catholics. Heck I think that the UN should mandate new nations all over the world for each religious faith!
  #12  
Old Jan 3, '08, 3:50 am
wifeandmomoftwo wifeandmomoftwo is offline
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Default Re: Are most Jews really Jews?

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Originally Posted by Valke2 View Post
Finally, I'll just say that it wouldn't matter to me as a Jew whether I am descended from converts or the "original Israelites". Nor would it effect the UN Mandate establishing Israel as a nation and national home for Jewish people.
Doesnt each sect (of judaism) also mandate what they view a jew as?
To be a jew by Orthodox standards is different than what a jew is by reform standards...so on and so forth.
  #13  
Old Jan 3, '08, 3:51 am
Valke2 Valke2 is offline
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Default Re: Are most Jews really Jews?

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Originally Posted by wifeandmomoftwo View Post
I want a UN Mandate establishing a nation and national home for Catholics. Heck I think that the UN should mandate new nations all over the world for each religious faith!
I'm sure the Vatican has some space for rent
  #14  
Old Jan 3, '08, 3:52 am
wifeandmomoftwo wifeandmomoftwo is offline
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Default Re: Are most Jews really Jews?

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Originally Posted by Valke2 View Post
I'm sure the Vatican has some space for rent
Oh but was it formed by the UN??

I want a special place mandated by the UN just for Catholics
And what about muslims, hindus, buddhists etc.??
  #15  
Old Jan 3, '08, 3:55 am
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Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
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Default Re: Are most Jews really Jews?

Not that long ago, there were an awful lot of Catholic countries - the whole idea seems to have gone completely out of fashion with the people who live in them though - except Poland and Ireland, though even the Irish seem a bit wobbly.
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