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  #16  
Old Aug 10, '10, 11:10 am
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisdomseeker View Post
most priests are not going to listen to you. they do as they please. what planet do you live in?
So just give up then?
You shouldn't be complaining about abuses in the Church if you yourself are seeing it and letting it happen. You are as guilty as those who actually perform the abuse.

Wow, this is amazing. People have died for this faith, and we can't even be bothered to fight for something like this? And then we go on internet forums and complain non-stop about abuses and then refuse to do anything about it.

The planet I live on, you have to do something for something to happen. Things do not fix themselves.
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  #17  
Old Aug 10, '10, 11:28 am
legendashmore legendashmore is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
So just give up then?
You shouldn't be complaining about abuses in the Church if you yourself are seeing it and letting it happen. You are as guilty as those who actually perform the abuse.

Wow, this is amazing. People have died for this faith, and we can't even be bothered to fight for something like this? And then we go on internet forums and complain non-stop about abuses and then refuse to do anything about it.

The planet I live on, you have to do something for something to happen. Things do not fix themselves.
I Absolutely agree. We Must stand up and speak. Who will be held accountable? The one who didn't know and thus did the abuse out of ignorance? Or the person who allowed it to happen by not saying anything?

We must always stand up and say something, no matter if we think the person will be responsive of it and change, or not.
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  #18  
Old Aug 10, '10, 11:30 am
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

Canon Law supports such acts and in fact states its part of our duty as faithful Christians to let our pastors know if we are knowledgable of such information that will be for the good of the Church:

THE OBLIGATIONS AND RIGHTS OF ALL THE CHRISTIAN FAITHFUL
Can. 212
3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.
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  #19  
Old Aug 10, '10, 11:57 am
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
Canon Law supports such acts and in fact states its part of our duty as faithful Christians to let our pastors know if we are knowledgable of such information that will be for the good of the Church:

THE OBLIGATIONS AND RIGHTS OF ALL THE CHRISTIAN FAITHFUL
Can. 212
3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.
Thanks for this. However, I've heard of a few doing exactly this with no favorable results. The only hope in many cases is for a new pastor and/or new bishop.
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  #20  
Old Aug 10, '10, 12:00 pm
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

Quote:
At a place where I go to mass we use actual bread for the Eucharist as opposed to wafers.

Unfortunately, one of the disadvantages of using real bread is that it is very easy for there to be crumbs that fall over the place during communion.

There have been multiple times where there have been crumbs that fall on the carpet at these masses. I sit in the front, so it's very easy for me to see them. I usually notice it after everyone has received and we are waiting for the alter to be cleared.

Now I usually get reeeeeally scrupulous about this. The reason is because of the fact that, while it is very easy for me to simply pick up the crumbs myself and either eat them or give them to the priest, the fact of the matter is that 1) I get so incredibly frustrated that the EMHC's and the priests are not more careful about this and 2) I get scrupulous about whether I picked up all the crumbs or not. There are usually other substances in the carpet that I sometimes mistake for crumbs, and it is very hard for me to distinguish between what is and what is not actual Eucharist (especially since it falls into a carpet-like material). So I end up scrupling over everything and feeling like I might sin if I don't do a somewhat-thorough "inspection" of the carpet after mass.

My question is this: how much of a moral obligation do I have in this matter? Should I just stop sitting in the front so that I don't see this? Should I just pick up stuff that is obviously the Eucharist and not scruple about other "particles"? Please help
Friend this is a GRAVE abuse that actually invalidates the Mass. It becomes a ilicit and INVALID Mass because of invalid form. Further were this a vaild form: Jesus in His Entireity would be whole and complete in every tiny fragment.

I strongly suggest that you AT ONCE contact your Bishops Office, department of the Liturgy. I repeat this is a MOST SERIOUS an GRAVE abuse.


Code of Canon Law:
Art. 3.


THE RITES AND CEREMONIES OF THE EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION

Can. 924 1. The most holy eucharistic sacrifice must be offered with bread and with wine in which a little water must be mixed.

2. The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.

3. The wine must be natural from the fruit of the vine and not spoiled.

Can. 925 Holy communion is to be given under the form of bread alone, or under both species according to the norm of the liturgical laws, or even under the form of wine alone in a case of necessity.

Can. 926 According to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, the priest is to use unleavened bread in the eucharistic celebration whenever he offers it.

Love and prayers

Pat

Send me a PM if you have other qustions PJM
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  #21  
Old Aug 10, '10, 12:07 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

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Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
Thanks for this. However, I've heard of a few doing exactly this with no favorable results. The only hope in many cases is for a new pastor and/or new bishop.
People shouldn't be discouraged. I know its hard, but the only way for abuses to end is if we actually do something. Non-stop complaining on CAF won't change a thing. Running away from parishes also won't change a thing. If we expect change, we should effect change, not run away from it.
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  #22  
Old Aug 10, '10, 12:10 pm
Bob Aliano Bob Aliano is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
Friend this is a GRAVE abuse that actually invalidates the Mass. It becomes a ilicit and INVALID Mass because of invalid form. Further were this a vaild form: Jesus in His Entireity would be whole and complete in every tiny fragment.

I strongly suggest that you AT ONCE contact your Bishops Office, department of the Liturgy. I repeat this is a MOST SERIOUS an GRAVE abuse.


Code of Canon Law:
Art. 3.


THE RITES AND CEREMONIES OF THE EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION

Can. 924 1. The most holy eucharistic sacrifice must be offered with bread and with wine in which a little water must be mixed.

2. The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.

3. The wine must be natural from the fruit of the vine and not spoiled.

Can. 925 Holy communion is to be given under the form of bread alone, or under both species according to the norm of the liturgical laws, or even under the form of wine alone in a case of necessity.

Can. 926 According to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, the priest is to use unleavened bread in the eucharistic celebration whenever he offers it.

Love and prayers

Pat

Send me a PM if you have other qustions PJM
I don't think anyone is arguing about the unleavened bread requirement for the Roman Catholic Church! I read what you cited and see nothing in there that says the bread must be in the form of a compressed wafer.
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  #23  
Old Aug 10, '10, 12:30 pm
wisdomseeker wisdomseeker is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
So just give up then?
You shouldn't be complaining about abuses in the Church if you yourself are seeing it and letting it happen. You are as guilty as those who actually perform the abuse.

Wow, this is amazing. People have died for this faith, and we can't even be bothered to fight for something like this? And then we go on internet forums and complain non-stop about abuses and then refuse to do anything about it.

The planet I live on, you have to do something for something to happen. Things do not fix themselves.


how can i be guilt of something that a priest has refused to listen? i have talked to priests about the abuses in the Church. what i got was hatefull response and the priest just walked out on me. and i was respectfull. but he became angry because priests dont like to be corrected.
the one thing you can do is to stop supporting a Church that commit these abuses and not be part of it.
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  #24  
Old Aug 10, '10, 12:51 pm
surfinpure surfinpure is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisdomseeker View Post
how can i be guilt of something that a priest has refused to listen? i have talked to priests about the abuses in the Church. what i got was hatefull response and the priest just walked out on me. and i was respectfull. but he became angry because priests dont like to be corrected.
the one thing you can do is to stop supporting a Church that commit these abuses and not be part of it.
I've had rude, flippant, and angry responses from priests, too, but we are still obligated to voice concerns, especially in the case of such a grave abuse!

Please make an appointment to discuss this in person with your pastor. If he won't hear you, write a letter to the bishop. If you know anyone else at the parish concerned about this, get them to do the same. We MUST NOT for any reason allow our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament to be trampled underfoot! You're not being scrupulous; you're just being a good Catholic!

This is one fight I would not give up.
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THE MOST PROBABLE EXPLANATION IS THAT
I WAS MADE FOR ANOTHER WORLD.
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  #25  
Old Aug 10, '10, 1:17 pm
snowbee snowbee is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
Friend this is a GRAVE abuse that actually invalidates the Mass. It becomes a ilicit and INVALID Mass because of invalid form. Further were this a vaild form: Jesus in His Entireity would be whole and complete in every tiny fragment.

I strongly suggest that you AT ONCE contact your Bishops Office, department of the Liturgy. I repeat this is a MOST SERIOUS an GRAVE abuse.


Code of Canon Law:
Art. 3.


THE RITES AND CEREMONIES OF THE EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION

Can. 924 1. The most holy eucharistic sacrifice must be offered with bread and with wine in which a little water must be mixed.

2. The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.

3. The wine must be natural from the fruit of the vine and not spoiled.

Can. 925 Holy communion is to be given under the form of bread alone, or under both species according to the norm of the liturgical laws, or even under the form of wine alone in a case of necessity.

Can. 926 According to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, the priest is to use unleavened bread in the eucharistic celebration whenever he offers it.

Love and prayers

Pat

Send me a PM if you have other qustions PJM
What's sad is that my diocese is bursting at the seems with abuse(Orange, B. T Brown) and who is in charge of our Liturgy for the Diocese, NOT a priest, a woman no less (meaning no possibility of becoming a priest) who is allowed to dress in liturgical robes no less and issued a letter to disobey Rome when the letter came out that the Priest is to wash and rinse the items used in Communion.
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  #26  
Old Aug 10, '10, 1:46 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisdomseeker View Post
how can i be guilt of something that a priest has refused to listen?
Because when one sees an abuse and recognizes an abuse and allows it to continue gives their consent to the abuse. Isn't it a crime in the US to witness a crime and not report it? Same case here. You don't do anything, you're guilty as well. Also don't forget the saying, that for evil to succeed it only needs enough good men to do nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisdomseeker View Post
i have talked to priests about the abuses in the Church. what i got was hatefull response and the priest just walked out on me. and i was respectfull. but he became angry because priests dont like to be corrected.
Many saints has suffered far worse for our faith. What we're asked of is not much. Benedictgal gave a good example of what happened with her. It came to a point the priest did not talk to her for a month. But in the end, she became trusted and respected and were able to affect change. We shouldn't give up at the first sign of trouble. Jesus asks us to love our neightbor. How is that loving your neighbor if you leave them to wallow in error?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisdomseeker View Post
the one thing you can do is to stop supporting a Church that commit these abuses and not be part of it.
Unless you're pouring in thousands of dollars a year into a parish, stopping supporting a parish on an individual level doesn't change anything. There are far more people who either quit the faith or become Protestant, but most parishes would live on. How are you any different than them from a parish contrubtion point of view? Remember, you were given the knowledge and the faith, much more is exepcted from you than the next guy who is blissfully ignorant of the abuses.
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  #27  
Old Aug 10, '10, 1:58 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
Friend this is a GRAVE abuse that actually invalidates the Mass. It becomes a ilicit and INVALID Mass because of invalid form. Further were this a vaild form: Jesus in His Entireity would be whole and complete in every tiny fragment.

I strongly suggest that you AT ONCE contact your Bishops Office, department of the Liturgy. I repeat this is a MOST SERIOUS an GRAVE abuse.


Code of Canon Law:
Art. 3.


THE RITES AND CEREMONIES OF THE EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION

Can. 924 1. The most holy eucharistic sacrifice must be offered with bread and with wine in which a little water must be mixed.

2. The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.

3. The wine must be natural from the fruit of the vine and not spoiled.

Can. 925 Holy communion is to be given under the form of bread alone, or under both species according to the norm of the liturgical laws, or even under the form of wine alone in a case of necessity.

Can. 926 According to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, the priest is to use unleavened bread in the eucharistic celebration whenever he offers it.

Love and prayers

Pat

Send me a PM if you have other qustions PJM
Lets get things straight. Leavened bread will NOT invalidate a Mass. The Eucharist is the same in whatever rite. If leavened bread is valid matter somewhere within the Church (which it is), then its valid matter everywhere.

The issue here is leavened bread is strictly forbidden under normal circumstances and it is a grave abuse in the Latin Rite. To use it would be a sin, but it does not invalidate the Sacrament.

Exceptions of course are extraordinary situations. Like if there is a natural calamity and you lose access to unleavened bread, or if you are stranded on an island and all you have is leavened bread (and a priest with you of course) then it is allowed .
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  #28  
Old Aug 10, '10, 2:03 pm
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lizaanne lizaanne is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

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Originally Posted by PJM View Post
[size="5"]Friend this is a GRAVE abus...[/u]
Dude - no need to scream and get all red in the face!! We can all read just fine, and everyone here understands this could be a very serious situation. Let's just calm down now and get the right information for the OP so he knows how to proceed.

Walk calmly away from the keyboard, everything will be ok.

~Liza
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  #29  
Old Aug 10, '10, 2:04 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

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Originally Posted by budgie2 View Post
Do you go to a Protestant Church? You're better going to a church with real wafers as the Last Supper was the feast of unleavened bread ie. bread without yeast so it should be wafer or flat bread like matzos. This bible says yeast was identified with sin in the Bible, ie beware the yeast of the Pharisees and the yeast of Herod.

http://www.ucg.org/bible-faq/christi...ened-bread.htm
Now, now. Lets not forget our Byzantine Rite bretheren use leavened bread


edit: why are you using a Protestant website as reference?
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  #30  
Old Aug 10, '10, 3:04 pm
CDNowak CDNowak is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

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Originally Posted by wisdomseeker View Post
most priests are not going to listen to you. they do as they please. what planet do you live in?
The "protocol" for addressing abuse is to speak with the pastor; (if negative response) inform the bishop, including as much detail as possible, including any response from the pastor; (if negative response) write the CDW, attaching a copy of any replies thus far. benedictgirl has the address memorized I believe, or it is readily searchable. If the pastor overreacts then it may be a good idea to find another parish while pursuing resolution to the issue.
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