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  #31  
Old Aug 10, '10, 3:11 pm
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
Lets get things straight. Leavened bread will NOT invalidate a Mass. The Eucharist is the same in whatever rite. If leavened bread is valid matter somewhere within the Church (which it is), then its valid matter everywhere.
Yes but why do anything that will place doubts into their parishioners' minds? A visitor to that church might not even recognize it as a Catholic Mass. Can you blame them for not coming back?
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  #32  
Old Aug 10, '10, 3:36 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

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Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
Yes but why do anything that will place doubts into their parishioners' minds? A visitor to that church might not even recognize it as a Catholic Mass. Can you blame them for not coming back?
I'm just stating the fact that leavened bread does not invalidate the Mass nor the Sacrament. Nothing more, nothing less.
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  #33  
Old Aug 10, '10, 3:42 pm
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
I'm just stating the fact that leavened bread does not invalidate the Mass nor the Sacrament. Nothing more, nothing less.
This doesn't include all leavened bread. Didn't we (not you necessarily) just have a dispute over Wonderbread on another thread as to whether it's valid or not? If there is a doubt as to its validity, there's a problem.
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  #34  
Old Aug 10, '10, 3:50 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

I have stated at an earlier post that the ingredients are to be wheat and water.

Do I have to be specific every time?
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  #35  
Old Aug 10, '10, 4:05 pm
surfinpure surfinpure is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

I think we owe it to the OP to keep the thread on topic, no?
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  #36  
Old Aug 10, '10, 4:08 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

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Originally Posted by surfinpure View Post
I think we owe it to the OP to keep the thread on topic, no?
I think that falls in line with the OP's question.

1st question, is the bread of valid matter? Being made of wheat and water only? If not, then its probably invalid matter.

2nd question, is it leavened or unleavened? If its valid matter, its a valid Sacrament nonetheless. But if its leavened, then its a grave abuse and a grave sin for the priest to use leavened bread in a Latin Rite Mass. But that does in no way invalidate the Sacrament.
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  #37  
Old Aug 10, '10, 7:47 pm
pcg2 pcg2 is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

It is made with only wheat and water. And what does unleavened mean as opposed to leavened?

And I don't agree that we are obligated, under pain of sin, to report abuses going on in our parishes.
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  #38  
Old Aug 10, '10, 8:09 pm
MarkThompson MarkThompson is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

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Originally Posted by pcg2 View Post
It is made with only wheat and water. And what does unleavened mean as opposed to leavened?

And I don't agree that we are obligated, under pain of sin, to report abuses going on in our parishes.
Leavened bread is made to rise either with yeast or with a chemical leavener like baking powder. As ConstantineTG explained, in the Roman Rite leavened bread is not permitted, but would still be valid matter if used in contravention of the rules. (Please take 10 seconds to at least Google this before quoting canon law that you don't understand in giant red letters, thanks. I've had to explain it like three times in the last week. )

Some people make the mistake of thinking that unless bread is really flat -- like wafer flat, or matzo flat -- it must have been leavened. This is not true, and unleavened bread, particularly if made with whole-wheat flour or the like (which is perfectly licit) can seem disarmingly "breadlike."
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  #39  
Old Aug 10, '10, 8:11 pm
CDNowak CDNowak is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

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Originally Posted by pcg2 View Post
It is made with only wheat and water. And what does unleavened mean as opposed to leavened?
Leavened means it has an agent that causes it to rise: ie baking soda or yeast If it is only flour (some baking flours have baking soda in them), then it would be licit matter, however, the crumbliness of the bread is gravely problematic.

Quote:
And I don't agree that we are obligated, under pain of sin, to report abuses going on in our parishes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redemptionis Sacramentum
[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.
(RS) Would seem to imply a moral obligation.
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  #40  
Old Aug 10, '10, 8:31 pm
MarkThompson MarkThompson is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

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Originally Posted by CDNowak View Post
Leavened means it has an agent that causes it to rise: ie baking soda or yeast If it is only flour (some baking flours have baking soda in them), then it would be licit matter, however, the crumbliness of the bread is gravely problematic.
With respect, I sincerely doubt that bread with any leavener at all would be licit matter in the Roman Rite. The canon specifically says that the bread is to be unleavened. And, that includes bread where leavener was added during the manufacture of the flour, since what is called for is "wheat flour," not wheat flour processed to add miscellaneous other agents.

Quote:
(RS) Would seem to imply a moral obligation.
This was discussed ad nauseam on another thread. Suffice it to say, some people thought that it would be a sin not to pursue all the way to the halls of Rome their own little hobby-horse abuses, and refused to discuss the implication that it would be sinful not to pursue to Rome minor abuses (e.g., how the cincture of the alb is tied).

You can read the thread here, starting at about post 153 (on the page I've linked), if you'd like to recap; it was eventually closed due to the nature of the discussion. I'm not going to rehash it all, I'm happy to say.
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  #41  
Old Aug 10, '10, 8:32 pm
MarkThompson MarkThompson is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

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Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
But then we'd have to know for sure that it is objectively an abuse. Since there are so many options in the OF, I wouldn't know whether some action or word or omission were an abuse or not for sure.
Would you quit with this obnoxious sniping already?
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  #42  
Old Aug 10, '10, 8:48 pm
CDNowak CDNowak is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

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Originally Posted by MarkThompson View Post
With respect, I sincerely doubt that bread with any leavener at all would be licit matter in the Roman Rite. The canon specifically says that the bread is to be unleavened. And, that includes bread where leavener was added during the manufacture of the flour, since what is called for is "wheat flour," not wheat flour processed to add miscellaneous other agents.
:facepalm: My mistake (I really should read what I type) I meant to say valid but illicit matter, thanks for catching that.

Quote:
This was discussed ad nauseam on another thread. Suffice it to say, some people thought that it would be a sin not to pursue all the way to the halls of Rome their own little hobby-horse abuses, and refused to discuss the implication that it would be sinful not to pursue to Rome minor abuses (e.g., how the cincture of the alb is tied).
I wouldn't go nearly that far (to say that I mean)... I'm not a moral theologian to weigh what RS means by duty, but I don't think the gravest of matters (gravitora delicta, perhaps even "mere" Grave Abuses) can be ignored with out the possibility of sin.
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  #43  
Old Aug 10, '10, 8:59 pm
MarkThompson MarkThompson is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

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Originally Posted by CDNowak View Post
I wouldn't go nearly that far (to say that I mean)... I'm not a moral theologian to weigh what RS means by duty, but I don't think the gravest of matters (gravitora delicta, perhaps even "mere" Grave Abuses) can be ignored with out the possibility of sin.
Don't misunderstand, I think there's a (very fuzzy) line to be drawn. I simply can't abide the notion that, in the context of a passage obviously intended to empower people to act to correct the liturgy, the Pope actually created a massive new category of sin: failure to report a liturgical abuse and pursue such complaints to the highest level possible. And that instead of saying that plainly, he worded it obliquely, with absolutely no citation or reference to the Church Fathers, canon law, theology, or anything else.

I am inclined to agree that in some cases it would be sinful to fail to bring certain types of abuses to light -- especially if one kept silence for the purpose of allowing them to continue -- but I think such an argument would have to be propounded on a case-by-case basis with due regard to the circumstances, and that one cannot simply say, "It is a sin if you don't report an abuse. See RS." RS, after all, doesn't say we should exercise extra diligence to stamp out graviora delicta. It says that a person must do "all that is in their power" to eradicate "any and every irreverence or distortion." The document actually only defines the various categories of abuses in the context of laying out their canonical penalties; it gives no reason to think that "any and every irreverence" means "wink wink, just the important ones, I mean let's be serious here."

As far as I know, no Church or canonical authority has clarified that the document was intended to create any moral obligation on the faithful at all. Given the obvious impracticability of the plain text, I'd have a tough time figuring that we ought to be guessing ourselves at the lines to be drawn here without some clarification from Rome -- particularly if we're talking about matters of sin rather than good manners.

Needless to say, I'm not a moral theologian either, so don't take my judgment to the bank just because I said so.
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  #44  
Old Aug 11, '10, 6:14 am
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lovemyboys lovemyboys is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

Unleavened bread can definitely have crumbs. Just last Sunday, I had already consumed my main piece of the host, but as I was walking away, there were two little crumbs in my hands. I almost just let them fall to the floor because I just wasn't expecting any crumbs. I thought to myself that a child would have just let them fall to the floor. I miss the uniform wafers from my last parish-- no crumbs.

Sometimes,when I'm worrying about details like this, I think of what a priest said once-- he said, "God can take care of Himself."
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  #45  
Old Aug 11, '10, 6:25 am
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor...

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Originally Posted by lovemyboys View Post
Unleavened bread can definitely have crumbs. Just last Sunday, I had already consumed my main piece of the host, but as I was walking away, there were two little crumbs in my hands.
Easy to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiUqD...eature=related
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