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  #1  
Old Jun 1, '12, 2:36 am
MirandaRiver MirandaRiver is offline
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Default Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

Lord, I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof, but say only the word and my soul shall be healed

I find this the most moving part of the Mass personally whilst I am in my own process of discernment and inquiry. I really do not feel worthy for the Lord to enter into my life, into my own 'reality' as there is a lot of my life that is contrary to Jesus's and the Church's teachings, and so I really don't feel worthy for God to come to me.... and yet there is part of me that is even afraid of the idea of my soul being healed. I do believe that this discernment process is a slow slow healing of my soul, but I do feel really confused too, its not a comforting or happy process, it often makes me feel sad and out of balance.

How do you personally connect with these words in the Mass? Has the meaning changed for you over time?
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Old Jun 1, '12, 4:24 am
loko loko is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

Quote:
Originally Posted by MirandaRiver View Post
[I]Lord, I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof, but say only the word and my soul shall be healed[/i]

I find this the most moving part of the Mass personally whilst I am in my own process of discernment and inquiry. I really do not feel worthy for the Lord to enter into my life, into my own 'reality' as there is a lot of my life that is contrary to Jesus's and the Church's teachings, and so I really don't feel worthy for God to come to me.... and yet there is part of me that is even afraid of the idea of my soul being healed. I do believe that this discernment process is a slow slow healing of my soul, but I do feel really confused too, its not a comforting or happy process, it often makes me feel sad and out of balance.

How do you personally connect with these words in the Mass? Has the meaning changed for you over time?
Hello Miranda,

Immediately following those words, we receive the Eucharist. These words prepare me for receiving the Eucharist which is the summit of Mass. When we say ' that you should enter under our roof' Catholics are referring specifically to the Eucharist as we believe it is the Body and Blood of Christ that we are receiving, therefore he is entering our 'under our roof' so to speak. We must Confess prior to receiving the Eucharist, which is a form of 'sweeping out the dirt' so our soul is ready to receive our Lord 'under our roof'.

The Eucharist is what sustains us as we wander in the 'wilderness' similarly the Israelites had Manna to sustain them during their 40years in the wilderness.

It is normal to feel unworthy and confused, I feel that still today to an extent. The Saints are famous for proclaiming their unworthiness although I know they were less confused and unsure than you or I, the Saints faith was solid. Look at Mary who felt unworthy that she had been chosen for the task.

The Sacraments are what make our (Catholics) soul ready to receive Christ in the Eucharist.

I promise you that if you do RCIA, get Baptised and make your first Confession and Eucharist, the burden will be lifted, you will feel less confused and less sad. I emphasise the word 'less' because the human soul will always be restless or sad because it is missing Christ. People try to fill that spiritual emptiness with cars, toys, drugs, alcohol etc, these things are temporary, whereas the spiritual and emotional fulfilment I get from Christ is eternal and nothing or no-one on earth comes close.

RCIA takes some time, a year or so depending on the history of the individual, this is also a time for discernment. I encourage you to contact your local parish and do the RCIA course, it is not binding, it is a journey of discovery, if during the course you do not want to go on that is fine.

These sad feelings you are having at Mass especially when you hear the highlighted verse above is the Holy Spirit calling you to the Eucharist. Let the Holy Spirit do it's work. Your spiritual emptiness is being slowly filled up.

Good luck on your path
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Old Jun 1, '12, 5:34 am
AthenaC AthenaC is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

I actually prefer the words from last year -

"Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed."

First of all, it just flows better. While we are engaged in group ritual prayer, I prefer more lyrical phrases. But that's just me.

Also, the word "receive" has a broader, deeper meaning, especially in the context of the Mass. We are "receiving" Jesus, after all. But also, the word "receive" when used to describe someone visiting your residence implies hospitality and sounds much more comprehensive than having someone "come under my roof." A Jehova's Witness "came under my roof" the other day, but I didn't "receive" him.

In addition, "I shall be healed" vs. "my soul shall be healed." Yes the primary focus is spiritual, but we do have a dual nature (physical and spiritual), so both are relevant. Hence the "I" which encompasses all that. Plus physical healings have been known to happen, but that's a side issue.

So basically during Mass I think of the deeper meaning and the lyrical sound of the old words while I mouth the new words like a good little Catholic.
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Old Jun 1, '12, 5:36 pm
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

Quote:
Originally Posted by AthenaC View Post
I actually prefer the words from last year -

"Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed."

First of all, it just flows better. While we are engaged in group ritual prayer, I prefer more lyrical phrases. But that's just me.
I like that we have gone back to English that more closely resembles the Latin. But I agree that this latest translation doesn't flow as well as it could. I think the version that we used back in the 1960s was easier to say.

Lord I am not worthy that you should come under my roof. Speak but the word and my soul shall be healed.

It's a couple syllables less and I think the second part flows better. Actually now that I think of it, I find "under" to be an awkward word to say in general. I'm not sure why.
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  #5  
Old Jun 1, '12, 8:50 pm
AthenaC AthenaC is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by SMHW View Post
I like that we have gone back to English that more closely resembles the Latin. But I agree that this latest translation doesn't flow as well as it could. I think the version that we used back in the 1960s was easier to say.

Lord I am not worthy that you should come under my roof. Speak but the word and my soul shall be healed.

It's a couple syllables less and I think the second part flows better. Actually now that I think of it, I find "under" to be an awkward word to say in general. I'm not sure why.
Yes, that second sentence does flow better than what we have now. There are tons more examples of how the new translation has irredeemably clunky language in place of what use to flow off the tongue so nicely. And it's not just a matter of being used to saying it; the sounds in the words of the old translation require less contortion of the mouth and the pattern of accented syllables flows better. Generally, when syllables are accented every other syllable or every third syllable, that's pleasing to the ear (think iambic pentameter). Also, when the calls and responses mirror each other in length.

Example:

Priest: The Lord be with you
Rest of us: And also with you
Priest: Lift up your hearts
Rest of us: We lift them up to the Lord
Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord our God
Rest of us: It is right to give him thanks and praise.


vs. It is right and just.

You see how the old version had symmetry from beginning to end? In the new version when we say "It is right and just," it sounds so abruptly truncated. Again, just a personal preference for lyrical group ritual prayer.

I'll stop here before I go too far off-topic, but I just wanted to clarify a little bit why I liked the flow of last year's Mass better.
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  #6  
Old Jun 2, '12, 8:19 am
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by AthenaC View Post
Yes, that second sentence does flow better than what we have now. There are tons more examples of how the new translation has irredeemably clunky language in place of what use to flow off the tongue so nicely. And it's not just a matter of being used to saying it; the sounds in the words of the old translation require less contortion of the mouth and the pattern of accented syllables flows better. Generally, when syllables are accented every other syllable or every third syllable, that's pleasing to the ear (think iambic pentameter).
Any translation (new or old) has difficulties.

Think of Shakespeare. How can any translation, say Chinese, possibly retain the poetry (alliteration, pentameter, meaning, affect, etc.) of the English, whose words were chosen carefully by the author? Even paraphrasing in English kills this word flow. The Mass was promulgated in the Latin and every word and phrase were chosen carefully by the Church for their beauty and theology. There's definitely a problem when the translated text starts to develop a life of its own. So you can argue till the cows come home which is the better translation but it seems to be a moot point if the original is so undermined.
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Old Jun 8, '12, 1:33 pm
AthenaC AthenaC is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
Any translation (new or old) has difficulties.

Think of Shakespeare. How can any translation, say Chinese, possibly retain the poetry (alliteration, pentameter, meaning, affect, etc.) of the English, whose words were chosen carefully by the author?
Funny you should mention Chinese, which is actually a very lyrical language. But yes, I agree that any translation has difficulties.

Quote:
There's definitely a problem when the translated text starts to develop a life of its own. So you can argue till the cows come home which is the better translation but it seems to be a moot point if the original is so undermined.
I don't know about "a life of its own," but what makes a translation "good" or not depends on what you want out of a translation. If you want the most literal translation possible (with no concern for the music that language can be), then the new traslation is certainly "better." If you want a translation that conveys the same concepts while sounding natural in the destination language, then the old translation is "better." I prefer the old translation.

I will give you an example -
(In this dramatization, the part of the Latin Mass will be played by a Chinese phrase, the part of the new translation will be played by the first translation attempt, while the part of the old translation will be played by the second translation attempt.)

Latin Mass / Chinese: Wo ting che zai tingchechang.

New / literal translation: I stopped the car in the stop car field.

Old / conceptual translation: I parked the car in the parking lot.
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  #8  
Old Jun 8, '12, 1:58 pm
TheRealJuliane TheRealJuliane is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

We say

"Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word, and my soul shall be healed."

I didn't get it at first, but now I love it.

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  #9  
Old Jun 8, '12, 2:27 pm
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by AthenaC View Post
I don't know about "a life of its own," but what makes a translation "good" or not depends on what you want out of a translation. If you want the most literal translation possible (with no concern for the music that language can be), then the new traslation is certainly "better." If you want a translation that conveys the same concepts while sounding natural in the destination language, then the old translation is "better." I prefer the old translation.

I will give you an example -
(In this dramatization, the part of the Latin Mass will be played by a Chinese phrase, the part of the new translation will be played by the first translation attempt, while the part of the old translation will be played by the second translation attempt.)

Latin Mass / Chinese: Wo ting che zai tingchechang.

New / literal translation: I stopped the car in the stop car field.

Old / conceptual translation: I parked the car in the parking lot.
I think I see your point.

Out of fun, I used the Google translator to translate each of the three into Polish:

1) Byłem parkowania na parkingu.

2) Zatrzymałem samochód na przystanku dziedzinie samochodów.

3) Zaparkowałem samochód na parkingu.

2 is very wierd. I wouldn't rule 3) out but I trust 1) more, simply because it's less removed from the original.

My concept of "having a life of its own" assumed that phrase in language A translated into phrase in language B and B becomes the basis of C, D, E, etc. In this case if B for whatever reason gets changed, then C, D, E, etc need to be changed. It would have been totally different had A been translated to B, C, D, E, etc separately.

ICEL translations, whether they were good or not, were apparently used to translate into other languages. Now all those other languages need to be retranslated. Had each of those languages been translated from the Latin, then the extent of the corrections would not have been so severe. Using your Chinese phrase, theoretically you retain more of the meaning if you translate directly into English (regardless of quality) or Polish or Spanish or Italian, rather than translating into English, then using the English translation to go to Polish, then using the Polish translation to go to Spanish and then Italian. For all we know, the Italian-speaker might end up understanding the phrase to mean that he was stopped in the parking lot because the car stopped or something like that.
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Old Jun 11, '12, 7:39 pm
AthenaC AthenaC is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
I think I see your point.

Out of fun, I used the Google translator to translate each of the three into Polish:

1) Byłem parkowania na parkingu.

2) Zatrzymałem samochód na przystanku dziedzinie samochodów.

3) Zaparkowałem samochód na parkingu.

2 is very wierd. I wouldn't rule 3) out but I trust 1) more, simply because it's less removed from the original.

My concept of "having a life of its own" assumed that phrase in language A translated into phrase in language B and B becomes the basis of C, D, E, etc. In this case if B for whatever reason gets changed, then C, D, E, etc need to be changed. It would have been totally different had A been translated to B, C, D, E, etc separately.

ICEL translations, whether they were good or not, were apparently used to translate into other languages. Now all those other languages need to be retranslated. Had each of those languages been translated from the Latin, then the extent of the corrections would not have been so severe. Using your Chinese phrase, theoretically you retain more of the meaning if you translate directly into English (regardless of quality) or Polish or Spanish or Italian, rather than translating into English, then using the English translation to go to Polish, then using the Polish translation to go to Spanish and then Italian. For all we know, the Italian-speaker might end up understanding the phrase to mean that he was stopped in the parking lot because the car stopped or something like that.
And I think I see your point. Google translate is a bit .... sketchy, though, so I'd be careful with it. There's a limit to how good an auto-translater can be. For example, I put my English phrase back into Google translate and the Chinese just sounded ... weird.

So then, whose bright idea was it to use an English translation to translate into other languages? (Not that I doubt you - am pretty sure I heard that somewhere else as well.) Seriously, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. So now we're stuck with an awful literal translation because going directly from Latin to Spanish, German, Chinese, Korean, etc. was too difficult?

Screw the vernacular - if you can't do it right, don't do it at all. Go back to the Latin already. (And believe me, I NEVER thought I would say that!)
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Old Jun 6, '12, 7:46 am
Marie5890 Marie5890 is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

Quote:
Originally Posted by AthenaC View Post
I actually prefer the words from last year -

"Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed."

First of all, it just flows better. While we are engaged in group ritual prayer, I prefer more lyrical phrases. But that's just me.

Also, the word "receive" has a broader, deeper meaning, especially in the context of the Mass. We are "receiving" Jesus, after all. But also, the word "receive" when used to describe someone visiting your residence implies hospitality and sounds much more comprehensive than having someone "come under my roof." A Jehova's Witness "came under my roof" the other day, but I didn't "receive" him.

In addition, "I shall be healed" vs. "my soul shall be healed." Yes the primary focus is spiritual, but we do have a dual nature (physical and spiritual), so both are relevant. Hence the "I" which encompasses all that. Plus physical healings have been known to happen, but that's a side issue.

So basically during Mass I think of the deeper meaning and the lyrical sound of the old words while I mouth the new words like a good little Catholic.
I too prefer it. It's actually closer to the scripture it is quoting. Matthew 8: 8 is about a physical healing, not that of the soul.

"The centurion said in reply,* “Lord, I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof; only say the word and my servant will be healed."

The way it is now, limits what it is was originally all about.
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Old Jun 8, '12, 5:05 pm
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oneGODoneCHURCH oneGODoneCHURCH is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

Quote:
=AthenaC;9359516]I actually prefer the words from last year -

"Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed."

First of all, it just flows better. While we are engaged in group ritual prayer, I prefer more lyrical phrases. But that's just me.

Also, the word "receive" has a broader, deeper meaning, especially in the context of the Mass. We are "receiving" Jesus, after all. But also, the word "receive" when used to describe someone visiting your residence implies hospitality and sounds much more comprehensive than having someone "come under my roof." A Jehova's Witness "came under my roof" the other day, but I didn't "receive" him.
But the corrected wording we use now reflects back to the scripture from which the pray comes Matthew 8:8. Also to anyone that you allow to come into your home, under your roof hospitality is the very least you can show to them if not do not let them in.

Quote:
In addition, "I shall be healed" vs. "my soul shall be healed." Yes the primary focus is spiritual, but we do have a dual nature (physical and spiritual), so both are relevant. Hence the "I" which encompasses all that. Plus physical healings have been known to happen, but that's a side issue.
see but with the I shall be healed as basically lead people to forget the spiritual side and only look at the physical. With the word soul the physical and spiritual are again reunited.

Quote:
So basically during Mass I think of the deeper meaning and the lyrical sound of the old words while I mouth the new words like a good little Catholic.
Maybe you should look more into and and pray and you will find the true deeper meaning in the corrected wording we are now using.
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  #13  
Old Jun 8, '12, 9:26 pm
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

For me a big part of this passage's appeal at this point in the Mass is: the pagan centurion's faith is a good model for ours at this miraculous moment.
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Old Jun 1, '12, 6:50 am
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

I agree that this is a touching phrase from the Mass for me. Personally, I am a visual person. I see imagery in my mind, and that is how I relate to the Divine during my worship. When I say that I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, I can imagine Christ standing before me, asking to come into my home. He's at the door, I am holding it open, and I am hesitating. For whatever reason, having that visual really helps me to open my heart and to simply say "Yes, Lord". I can be healed at his command, and I am letting him command it.

I'm sorry if that didn't really make much sense. I know that it is personal to each person, so my individual imagination doesn't necessarily mean much to others.
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Old Jun 1, '12, 6:52 am
Cathryn Cathryn is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

"Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof; but only say the word, and my soul will be healed." said three times is what we prayed at Mass when I was a child. It is also more true to Holy Scripture :

Quote:
[6] And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, and is grieviously tormented. [7] And Jesus saith to him: I will come and heal him. [8] And the centurion making answer, said: Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst enter under my roof: but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed.[Matthew 8:8] [Latin] [9] For I also am a man subject to authority, having under me soldiers; and I say to this, Go, and he goeth, and to another, Come, and he cometh, and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.[10] And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel.
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