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  #16  
Old Jun 2, '12, 4:33 am
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MissRose73 MissRose73 is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

I love those words. I just wished we were saying them sooner using the new translations. I also am reminded of the great faith of the centurion and that Jesus used him as an example of great faith.

I've not yet memorized the Latin version when I go to the EF, but I use my missal and do my best to say it right.
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  #17  
Old Jun 2, '12, 4:46 am
panevino panevino is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

"Under my roof" makes me think of my responsibility to my family
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  #18  
Old Jun 2, '12, 8:19 am
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

Quote:
Originally Posted by AthenaC View Post
Yes, that second sentence does flow better than what we have now. There are tons more examples of how the new translation has irredeemably clunky language in place of what use to flow off the tongue so nicely. And it's not just a matter of being used to saying it; the sounds in the words of the old translation require less contortion of the mouth and the pattern of accented syllables flows better. Generally, when syllables are accented every other syllable or every third syllable, that's pleasing to the ear (think iambic pentameter).
Any translation (new or old) has difficulties.

Think of Shakespeare. How can any translation, say Chinese, possibly retain the poetry (alliteration, pentameter, meaning, affect, etc.) of the English, whose words were chosen carefully by the author? Even paraphrasing in English kills this word flow. The Mass was promulgated in the Latin and every word and phrase were chosen carefully by the Church for their beauty and theology. There's definitely a problem when the translated text starts to develop a life of its own. So you can argue till the cows come home which is the better translation but it seems to be a moot point if the original is so undermined.
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  #19  
Old Jun 2, '12, 8:51 am
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englishredrose englishredrose is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

Hello Miranderriver
I am anglican and we moved away from the Missal so we still say "Lord I am not worthy of you but only say the word and I shall be healed"

Over 25 years or more this has grown in relevance for me. Initially I think as of any part of the service meant nothing to me. Then as we get more experience of the service and more life experience the two go together and bits speak out to you.

I find this part of the service most important of all when we look at all the general confession and forgiveness throughout the service. If somehow haven't managed to seek forgiveness till now then this does it for me at least. Whatever struggle I am going through this puts it right for me and whilst many anglicans do have the same hang ups about receiving communion as similar to Catholics I am not one of them because of this sentence. This sentence puts it right for me, whatever frame of mind I might be in, I cling to this as such. It makes it all alright because I know he will heal me to make me worthy enough to receive communion. It doesn't matter what I think of me. I put that in the hands of God at this moment and its all taken care off. I like this part of the service very much somehow. It makes us all equal and no differences in us. Whatever is happening to us, God forgives as he heals.

Its a very good sentence.
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  #20  
Old Jun 2, '12, 9:00 am
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by englishredrose View Post
Whatever struggle I am going through this puts it right for me and whilst many anglicans do have the same hang ups about receiving communion as similar to Catholics I am not one of them because of this sentence. This sentence puts it right for me, whatever frame of mind I might be in, I cling to this as such. It makes it all alright because I know he will heal me to make me worthy enough to receive communion.
I'm sorry but I don't see by saying "Non sum dignus" or "I am not worthy" it makes you any more worthy. In Catholic theology, confession does that.
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  #21  
Old Jun 2, '12, 9:33 am
liturgyluver liturgyluver is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

Englishredrose, the original translation using the beautiful words "under my roof" were actually in use in the Anglican church and they only moved to the then Catholic translation much later. The original words are still in use in the traditional language option.
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  #22  
Old Jun 2, '12, 10:20 am
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englishredrose englishredrose is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
I'm sorry but I don't see by saying "Non sum dignus" or "I am not worthy" it makes you any more worthy. In Catholic theology, confession does that.
Sorry ProVobis but I clearly stated that I am anglican and therefore hopefully that will explain to you that I am not Catholic therefore and don't know what Catholic theology teaches on it All I have done is roughly say how this sentence works for me and that is all. Not what is taught or anything just how it speaks to me but I did clearly state I am anglican and how I personally feel and we don't do confession like you guys do. It is there available to us but on a different level so this indeed does work for me whereas confessional works for you guys. I don't actually know what the Anglican theological teachings are on it either for that matter and for the purpose of the opening post that right now does not matter for I was simply saying how it works for me and any changes over the time. Nothing to do with any theological teachings So I am not wrong in my contribution to the thread because MirandaRivers asked what it mean for us. Nothing to do with what theological teachings therefore... I was simply explaining how God is working in my life right now in the service. Not any technically correct theological discussion

liturgylover.
It may or may not be the original anglican wording, who knows. I only carefully spelled out I am anglican because when I don't do so a few a quick to say that is what I am. I just was trying to explain what 'we' say in 'our' church right now :-} to answer the question as best I can though we don't say under the roof so can't answer that bit. It sounds odd to me does that bit as anything does when not said it for 25 years
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  #23  
Old Jun 2, '12, 10:41 am
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corsair corsair is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

I, personally, prefer the latin words to the Mass. The problems with translations are very evident when comparing various missals. Some seem to flow while others are a bit ackward.

Which is why I like the latin.
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  #24  
Old Jun 2, '12, 11:36 am
liturgyluver liturgyluver is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

Quote:
Originally Posted by englishredrose View Post

liturgylover.
It may or may not be the original anglican wording, who knows. I only carefully spelled out I am anglican because when I don't do so a few a quick to say that is what I am. I just was trying to explain what 'we' say in 'our' church right now :-} to answer the question as best I can though we don't say under the roof so can't answer that bit. It sounds odd to me does that bit as anything does when not said it for 25 years
Who knows? I know as my Dad was Anglican and I have studied Eucharistic rites.

This wording is still an option in the Anglican Common Worship liturgy and used in many Anglican churches, though obviously not in yours, but the theology and wording is familiar to many Anglicans.
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  #25  
Old Jun 2, '12, 1:34 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

In the Byzantine Rite we echo instead the prayer of the thief on the cross prior to Communion,

I believe, O Lord, and confess that You are truly Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. Accept me this day, O son of God, as a partaker of Your mystical Supper. I will not tell the mystery to Your enemies, nor will I give You a kiss as did Judas, but like the thief, I confess to You:

+Remember me, O Lord, when You come into Your kingdom.
+Remember me, O Master, when You come into Your kingdom,
+Remember me, O Holy One, when You come into Your kingdom.

May the partaking of Your Holy Mysteries, O Lord, be unto me not for judgment or condemnation but for the healing of the soul and body.

+God, be merciful to me a sinner.
+God, cleanse me of my sins and have mercy on me.
+I have sinned without number, forgive me, O Lord.


Both prayers show how we, as sinners, are never worthy of God. But by His own sacrifice, he himself has made us worthy. It shows us that even our own worthiness is not of our own merit but his.
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  #26  
Old Jun 2, '12, 1:58 pm
liturgyluver liturgyluver is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
In the Byzantine Rite we echo instead the prayer of the thief on the cross prior to Communion,

I believe, O Lord, and confess that You are truly Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. Accept me this day, O son of God, as a partaker of Your mystical Supper. I will not tell the mystery to Your enemies, nor will I give You a kiss as did Judas, but like the thief, I confess to You:

+Remember me, O Lord, when You come into Your kingdom.
+Remember me, O Master, when You come into Your kingdom,
+Remember me, O Holy One, when You come into Your kingdom.

May the partaking of Your Holy Mysteries, O Lord, be unto me not for judgment or condemnation but for the healing of the soul and body.

+God, be merciful to me a sinner.
+God, cleanse me of my sins and have mercy on me.
+I have sinned without number, forgive me, O Lord.


Both prayers show how we, as sinners, are never worthy of God. But by His own sacrifice, he himself has made us worthy. It shows us that even our own worthiness is not of our own merit but his.
These are stunningly beautiful prayers.
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  #27  
Old Jun 6, '12, 7:36 am
Elizabeth C Elizabeth C is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

When I was in RCIA, they had a retreat for us. One of the actiivities that talked about evaluating our "house" to see if it was ready for a special visitor. It was very meaningful to me at that time. And, it was one of the times that I cried. After that, one of the speakers read a passage that talked about God choosing us. And yes, I cried again... and it wasn't the last. When I was in our small group discussions. I talked about the tears. The leader's response was that tears are the Holy Spirit at work. Take comfort even in the sorrow you feel.

When I read about the change in wording to be "enter under my roof" and the scriptural connected, I thought about this "house" activity. That Jesus should desire to "come under my roof", that God chose me to be His, to be part of His Church, is a great joy, and a great responsibility. We are not "worthy" on our own, but with God's help, all things are possible!

Take the sorrow you feel. It may be grief and remorse. Let God heal your soul so you may have joy!
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  #28  
Old Jun 6, '12, 7:46 am
Marie5890 Marie5890 is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

Quote:
Originally Posted by AthenaC View Post
I actually prefer the words from last year -

"Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed."

First of all, it just flows better. While we are engaged in group ritual prayer, I prefer more lyrical phrases. But that's just me.

Also, the word "receive" has a broader, deeper meaning, especially in the context of the Mass. We are "receiving" Jesus, after all. But also, the word "receive" when used to describe someone visiting your residence implies hospitality and sounds much more comprehensive than having someone "come under my roof." A Jehova's Witness "came under my roof" the other day, but I didn't "receive" him.

In addition, "I shall be healed" vs. "my soul shall be healed." Yes the primary focus is spiritual, but we do have a dual nature (physical and spiritual), so both are relevant. Hence the "I" which encompasses all that. Plus physical healings have been known to happen, but that's a side issue.

So basically during Mass I think of the deeper meaning and the lyrical sound of the old words while I mouth the new words like a good little Catholic.
I too prefer it. It's actually closer to the scripture it is quoting. Matthew 8: 8 is about a physical healing, not that of the soul.

"The centurion said in reply,* “Lord, I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof; only say the word and my servant will be healed."

The way it is now, limits what it is was originally all about.
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  #29  
Old Jun 8, '12, 1:33 pm
AthenaC AthenaC is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
Any translation (new or old) has difficulties.

Think of Shakespeare. How can any translation, say Chinese, possibly retain the poetry (alliteration, pentameter, meaning, affect, etc.) of the English, whose words were chosen carefully by the author?
Funny you should mention Chinese, which is actually a very lyrical language. But yes, I agree that any translation has difficulties.

Quote:
There's definitely a problem when the translated text starts to develop a life of its own. So you can argue till the cows come home which is the better translation but it seems to be a moot point if the original is so undermined.
I don't know about "a life of its own," but what makes a translation "good" or not depends on what you want out of a translation. If you want the most literal translation possible (with no concern for the music that language can be), then the new traslation is certainly "better." If you want a translation that conveys the same concepts while sounding natural in the destination language, then the old translation is "better." I prefer the old translation.

I will give you an example -
(In this dramatization, the part of the Latin Mass will be played by a Chinese phrase, the part of the new translation will be played by the first translation attempt, while the part of the old translation will be played by the second translation attempt.)

Latin Mass / Chinese: Wo ting che zai tingchechang.

New / literal translation: I stopped the car in the stop car field.

Old / conceptual translation: I parked the car in the parking lot.
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  #30  
Old Jun 8, '12, 1:58 pm
TheRealJuliane TheRealJuliane is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

We say

"Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word, and my soul shall be healed."

I didn't get it at first, but now I love it.

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