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  #31  
Old Jun 8, '12, 2:27 pm
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by AthenaC View Post
I don't know about "a life of its own," but what makes a translation "good" or not depends on what you want out of a translation. If you want the most literal translation possible (with no concern for the music that language can be), then the new traslation is certainly "better." If you want a translation that conveys the same concepts while sounding natural in the destination language, then the old translation is "better." I prefer the old translation.

I will give you an example -
(In this dramatization, the part of the Latin Mass will be played by a Chinese phrase, the part of the new translation will be played by the first translation attempt, while the part of the old translation will be played by the second translation attempt.)

Latin Mass / Chinese: Wo ting che zai tingchechang.

New / literal translation: I stopped the car in the stop car field.

Old / conceptual translation: I parked the car in the parking lot.
I think I see your point.

Out of fun, I used the Google translator to translate each of the three into Polish:

1) Byłem parkowania na parkingu.

2) Zatrzymałem samochód na przystanku dziedzinie samochodów.

3) Zaparkowałem samochód na parkingu.

2 is very wierd. I wouldn't rule 3) out but I trust 1) more, simply because it's less removed from the original.

My concept of "having a life of its own" assumed that phrase in language A translated into phrase in language B and B becomes the basis of C, D, E, etc. In this case if B for whatever reason gets changed, then C, D, E, etc need to be changed. It would have been totally different had A been translated to B, C, D, E, etc separately.

ICEL translations, whether they were good or not, were apparently used to translate into other languages. Now all those other languages need to be retranslated. Had each of those languages been translated from the Latin, then the extent of the corrections would not have been so severe. Using your Chinese phrase, theoretically you retain more of the meaning if you translate directly into English (regardless of quality) or Polish or Spanish or Italian, rather than translating into English, then using the English translation to go to Polish, then using the Polish translation to go to Spanish and then Italian. For all we know, the Italian-speaker might end up understanding the phrase to mean that he was stopped in the parking lot because the car stopped or something like that.
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  #32  
Old Jun 8, '12, 5:05 pm
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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=AthenaC;9359516]I actually prefer the words from last year -

"Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed."

First of all, it just flows better. While we are engaged in group ritual prayer, I prefer more lyrical phrases. But that's just me.

Also, the word "receive" has a broader, deeper meaning, especially in the context of the Mass. We are "receiving" Jesus, after all. But also, the word "receive" when used to describe someone visiting your residence implies hospitality and sounds much more comprehensive than having someone "come under my roof." A Jehova's Witness "came under my roof" the other day, but I didn't "receive" him.
But the corrected wording we use now reflects back to the scripture from which the pray comes Matthew 8:8. Also to anyone that you allow to come into your home, under your roof hospitality is the very least you can show to them if not do not let them in.

Quote:
In addition, "I shall be healed" vs. "my soul shall be healed." Yes the primary focus is spiritual, but we do have a dual nature (physical and spiritual), so both are relevant. Hence the "I" which encompasses all that. Plus physical healings have been known to happen, but that's a side issue.
see but with the I shall be healed as basically lead people to forget the spiritual side and only look at the physical. With the word soul the physical and spiritual are again reunited.

Quote:
So basically during Mass I think of the deeper meaning and the lyrical sound of the old words while I mouth the new words like a good little Catholic.
Maybe you should look more into and and pray and you will find the true deeper meaning in the corrected wording we are now using.
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  #33  
Old Jun 8, '12, 9:26 pm
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

For me a big part of this passage's appeal at this point in the Mass is: the pagan centurion's faith is a good model for ours at this miraculous moment.
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  #34  
Old Jun 9, '12, 10:43 am
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
In the Byzantine Rite we echo instead the prayer of the thief on the cross prior to Communion,

I believe, O Lord, and confess that You are truly Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. Accept me this day, O son of God, as a partaker of Your mystical Supper. I will not tell the mystery to Your enemies, nor will I give You a kiss as did Judas, but like the thief, I confess to You:

+Remember me, O Lord, when You come into Your kingdom.
+Remember me, O Master, when You come into Your kingdom,
+Remember me, O Holy One, when You come into Your kingdom.

May the partaking of Your Holy Mysteries, O Lord, be unto me not for judgment or condemnation but for the healing of the soul and body.

+God, be merciful to me a sinner.
+God, cleanse me of my sins and have mercy on me.
+I have sinned without number, forgive me, O Lord.


Both prayers show how we, as sinners, are never worthy of God. But by His own sacrifice, he himself has made us worthy. It shows us that even our own worthiness is not of our own merit but his.
I like that prayer before Communion you posted here. Are Latin Rite Catholics allowed to receive in the Byzantine Rite without issues, just wondering?
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  #35  
Old Jun 9, '12, 11:36 am
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by MirandaRiver View Post
[i]

How do you personally connect with these words in the Mass? Has the meaning changed for you over time?
No . I will always be unworthy to receive the Lord .
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  #36  
Old Jun 9, '12, 11:43 am
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by arkwright View Post
No . I will always be unworthy to receive the Lord .
Then of what value are confession and the minimal fast?
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  #37  
Old Jun 9, '12, 12:52 pm
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
Then of what value are confession and the minimal fast?
What are you talking about ?
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  #38  
Old Jun 9, '12, 1:12 pm
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by arkwright View Post
What are you talking about ?
Well, you said:

Quote:
No . I will always be unworthy to receive the Lord .
That's not what we say nor asked to say. Care to defend your statement?
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  #39  
Old Jun 10, '12, 2:10 am
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
Well, you said:



That's not what we say nor asked to say. Care to defend your statement?
Jesus is my Lord and my God .

I am His unworthy servant and I know that there will never be a time in my life when I can say before the reception of the Eucharist : " Lord , I am worthy to receive you . "

As long as I journey on my pilgrimage through life , damaged and tainted by sin , I will always be unworthy .

The greatest of the saints always considered themselves as unworthy to receive the Lord in the Eucharist . Who am I to boast that I am worthy ?
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  #40  
Old Jun 11, '12, 7:39 pm
AthenaC AthenaC is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
I think I see your point.

Out of fun, I used the Google translator to translate each of the three into Polish:

1) Byłem parkowania na parkingu.

2) Zatrzymałem samochód na przystanku dziedzinie samochodów.

3) Zaparkowałem samochód na parkingu.

2 is very wierd. I wouldn't rule 3) out but I trust 1) more, simply because it's less removed from the original.

My concept of "having a life of its own" assumed that phrase in language A translated into phrase in language B and B becomes the basis of C, D, E, etc. In this case if B for whatever reason gets changed, then C, D, E, etc need to be changed. It would have been totally different had A been translated to B, C, D, E, etc separately.

ICEL translations, whether they were good or not, were apparently used to translate into other languages. Now all those other languages need to be retranslated. Had each of those languages been translated from the Latin, then the extent of the corrections would not have been so severe. Using your Chinese phrase, theoretically you retain more of the meaning if you translate directly into English (regardless of quality) or Polish or Spanish or Italian, rather than translating into English, then using the English translation to go to Polish, then using the Polish translation to go to Spanish and then Italian. For all we know, the Italian-speaker might end up understanding the phrase to mean that he was stopped in the parking lot because the car stopped or something like that.
And I think I see your point. Google translate is a bit .... sketchy, though, so I'd be careful with it. There's a limit to how good an auto-translater can be. For example, I put my English phrase back into Google translate and the Chinese just sounded ... weird.

So then, whose bright idea was it to use an English translation to translate into other languages? (Not that I doubt you - am pretty sure I heard that somewhere else as well.) Seriously, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. So now we're stuck with an awful literal translation because going directly from Latin to Spanish, German, Chinese, Korean, etc. was too difficult?

Screw the vernacular - if you can't do it right, don't do it at all. Go back to the Latin already. (And believe me, I NEVER thought I would say that!)
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  #41  
Old Jun 11, '12, 7:54 pm
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by MissRose73 View Post
Are Latin Rite Catholics allowed to receive in the Byzantine Rite without issues, just wondering?
Sure you may, in Eastern Catholic Churches that follow the Byzantine Rite (remember there are Orthodox Churches that do as well).
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  #42  
Old Jun 11, '12, 7:59 pm
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by arkwright View Post
Jesus is my Lord and my God .

I am His unworthy servant and I know that there will never be a time in my life when I can say before the reception of the Eucharist : " Lord , I am worthy to receive you . "

As long as I journey on my pilgrimage through life , damaged and tainted by sin , I will always be unworthy .

The greatest of the saints always considered themselves as unworthy to receive the Lord in the Eucharist . Who am I to boast that I am worthy ?
Okay, you've demonstrated your point. But isn't Domine, non sum dignus, ut intres sub tectum meum: sed tantum dic verbo, et sanabitur anima mea, (said six times in the EF, incidently) more of a statement of faith? St. Paul talks about receiving worthily, which is different than being worthy IMO.
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  #43  
Old Jun 11, '12, 8:08 pm
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by ByzCathCantor View Post
Sure you may, in Eastern Catholic Churches that follow the Byzantine Rite (remember there are Orthodox Churches that do as well).
Are the fasting length requirements the same? And isn't it true that the Orthodox may refuse to give communion to those of the Latin Rite?
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  #44  
Old Jun 11, '12, 8:11 pm
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by MissRose73 View Post
I like that prayer before Communion you posted here. Are Latin Rite Catholics allowed to receive in the Byzantine Rite without issues, just wondering?
As long as it is an Eastern Catholic parish and not an Orthodox one.
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  #45  
Old Jun 11, '12, 8:13 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Mass - 'Lord I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof...'

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Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
Are the fasting length requirements the same? And isn't it true that the Orthodox may refuse to give communion to those of the Latin Rite?
Well, if it comes down to it, priests wouldn't know if you fasted or not. As for fasting requirements, you're always welcome to adopt the traditional practice of the East (from midnight) or maintain the one hour. Its the same Christ you are receiving, so fast as you usually would.

The Orthodox may refuse communion to Catholics of any Rite. Though there have been cases of some who allow Catholics to receive Communion. But the general rule is to not receive from them. I know an Orthodox priest and he doesn't allow me to receive Communion, but he lets me participate in everything else. Once I received the blessed bread and wine when we had Festal Litya.
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