Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #16  
Old Oct 16, '09, 11:52 am
StrawberryJam StrawberryJam is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 1, 2009
Posts: 8,097
Religion: not sure
Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Church Militant View Post
I would much appreciate it if someone one, (especially you who are n-Cs) would display and clarify for me just precisely where it is in the Word of God that it specifically states that everything that Christians believe and practice must be found within its pages.


I can't find a passage that states that everything that Christians believe and practice must be found within its pages. Right now I am checking if it even has any mention of wakes and funerals and believers procedures on that after Christ died. I may not find it, because a lot of stuff is simply not in there.
Quote:
This also is for some of you Catholics that come in here and all but demand to know where some Catholic teaching or practice is found in the Bible.
I don't know how to respond to this so I won't.

Quote:
The reason I am posting this is because I have read the Bible (all 73 books of it!) many times and have yet to find anything that supports this idea. I have concluded that the Catholic Church is correct in teaching that the Bible does not say this and therefore it is error.
Well, you do present a point worth considering here.
Quote:
I want all of us Catholics to understand that this is a fundamental doctrinal error of some communities of n-C Christianity and so there is no reason to get distressed when someone comes at you with this stuff, because the fact of the matter is ...it's NOT in the Bible itself.

No one should get distressed over any of this I agree!
  #17  
Old Oct 16, '09, 11:58 am
JustaServant's Avatar
JustaServant JustaServant is offline
 
Join Date: April 27, 2007
Posts: 7,727
Religion: Catholic (revert)
Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drawmack View Post
Doesn't the Bible tell us to evangalize?

Doesn't the Bible tell us to teach our youth in the ways of the Lord?

ditto

Show me one Protestant who believes these are a necessary means of worship!

Doesn't the Bible say that we are to worship with the banging of drums and the clanging of cymbals?

Doesn't the Bible say that ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ and aren't these schools set up to teach people those Scriptures?

Doesn't the Bible say something about men praying with a covering on their heads and women praying without a covering and doesn't this passage go on to say that long hair is a covering? (BTW: the Jesus crew cut thing is just silly men didn't wear their hair that way in biblical times.)
You missed the point.
Didn't say any of those things were bad, just said they were part of Protestant 'tradition' that has no Biblical basis.
  #18  
Old Oct 16, '09, 12:23 pm
frnate frnate is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 2005
Posts: 384
Religion: Catholic (Not in communion with Rome)
Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clmowry View Post
I believe you will find that this question "always" gets ignored.

Even when someone feigns a response it looks something like this:

Question: "Prove to me from Scripture alone that that Scripture says it is the formally sufficient and only rule of Christian faith."

Answer: "You prove to me X." Where “X” is any Catholic teaching.

Somehow the Catholic not being able to “prove” something that they never claimed to be able to “prove” is supposed to “prove” the thing that they themselves cannot “prove” is true.

I guess the logic goes something like this:

If you believe X is true even though you cannot prove it, then you must allow that Y is true because I can’t prove it either.

If this particular logical fallacy doesn’t already have a name, I call dibs!

I dub it the “Chuckism”. Hehe.


Chuck
Chuckism...hmmm it kinda grows on ya!

+N
__________________
Moloch also says, 'Suffer the little children to come unto me,' but where Jesus places His hand on their heads, Moloch places his teeth. -- Peter Kreeft
  #19  
Old Oct 16, '09, 12:31 pm
JustaServant's Avatar
JustaServant JustaServant is offline
 
Join Date: April 27, 2007
Posts: 7,727
Religion: Catholic (revert)
Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clmowry View Post
I believe you will find that this question "always" gets ignored.

Even when someone feigns a response it looks something like this:

Question: "Prove to me from Scripture alone that that Scripture says it is the formally sufficient and only rule of Christian faith."

Answer: "You prove to me X." Where “X” is any Catholic teaching.

Somehow the Catholic not being able to “prove” something that they never claimed to be able to “prove” is supposed to “prove” the thing that they themselves cannot “prove” is true.

I guess the logic goes something like this:

If you believe X is true even though you cannot prove it, then you must allow that Y is true because I can’t prove it either.

If this particular logical fallacy doesn’t already have a name, I call dibs!

I dub it the “Chuckism”. Hehe.


Chuck
I remember many years ago when I was a Baptist I got into a discussion with a fundamentalist preacher on the subject of inter-racial dating/marriage. He of course was dead set against it and provided a few scripture verses to 'prove' it. I pointed out the verses were taken out of context and showed him why. I continued to insist that he find anywhere in the Bible that spoke against inter-racial relationships. He became rather frustrated and said:
"Does everything have to be in Bible for it to be true"?
Eye opening statement.
  #20  
Old Oct 16, '09, 12:44 pm
crazzeto's Avatar
crazzeto crazzeto is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Posts: 5,687
Religion: Catholic - Roman Rite
Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Church Militant View Post
Got a link to it?

This thread is really meant to come at that from a slightly different direction. Hopefully some n-Cs will be kind enough to enter the discussion and enrich it.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=387719
  #21  
Old Oct 16, '09, 1:51 pm
jlhargus jlhargus is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2006
Posts: 2,476
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drawmack View Post
Can you show me where in the Bible it calls tradition God breathed?
I can show scripture where DIVINE ORAL TRADITION, was directly hand delivered by God, thru our Lord and God Jesus Christ himself. He personally taught that DIVINE ORAL TRADITION to the apostles and SENT them to TEACH that ORAL TRADITION to the whole world. So there was no need to breath those Divine Traditions, Jesus hand delivered them directly to the apostles. It was only nescessary after he ascended to breath those Written Traditions to clarify some of those Oral Traditions.

Christ's teachings to the apostles were all Oral Tradition and Traditioned by Christ to his apostles. [1Thes2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye RECEIVED the WORD OF GOD which ye HEARD of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is IN TRUTH, the WORD OF GOD, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.]

Christ wrote nothing and the apostles wrote only to already established churches who had received, and was already living that Oral Word of God, taught them from the Apostolic Oral Tradition. Some of the Oral Word of God was latter written down and gathered into a canon of books in 382 A.D.. The epistles were written for the most part to clarify or solve problems in the community.

2Tim1:13 HOLD FAST the form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 THAT GOOD THING which was COMMITTED unto thee KEEP BY THE HOLY GHOST which dwelleth IN US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drawmack View Post
Additionally, if tradition is God breathed then why can it chan, err I mean evolve?
JL: Divine Traditions whether WORD or EPISTLE cannot be changed, err or contradict each other, they must always agree. Better understanding of oral or written Traditions can and does evolve, such as which books belong to the canon of the BIBLE took almost four hundred years to evolve. Also the understanding of the Trinity evolved.

2Tim1:13 HOLD FAST the form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 THAT GOOD THING which was COMMITTED unto thee KEEP BY THE HOLY GHOST which dwelleth IN US.

2Tim2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And THE THINGS that THOU HAST HEARD OF ME among many witnesses, THE SAME COMMIT thou TO FAITHFUL MEN, who shall be ABLE TO TEACH OTHERS also.

1Tim6:20 Timothy, KEEP THAT WHICH IS COMMITTED TO THY TRUST, avoiding profane and vain babblings,

Philip4:9 THOSE THINGS, which YE HAVE both LEARNED, and RECEIVED, and HEARD, and SEEN IN ME, DO: and the God of peace shall be with you.]

There are many good scripture examples of tradition, the burden of proof is on you, you must SHOW SOLA SCRIPTURA, which is a tradition of men, made a doctrine of God around 1520, [Jer 23:36 36 But you must not mention the oracle of the LORD again, because EVERY MAN'S OWN WORD BECOMES HIS ORACLE and so you distort the words of the living God,...] Or you must show scripture saying all oral tradition has now been included in the written tradition=scripture, which you cannot do. Paul says in 2 Thes, OUR GOSPEL, brethren, WHETHER word=oral OR epistle=written.

Jn14: 26: But the Comforter, which is THE HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and BRING all things TO your REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I have SAID UNTO YOU.

The Church, the pillar and ground of truth, 1Tm3:15, which Christ pormised to be with till the end and guide into ALL TRUTH is guided by that same Holy Spirit who breathed the Scriptures.
__________________
Tiber swim team 73. Jn14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. (Christ) Lk1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: (Mary) for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. The Ultimate truth is CHRIST who is TRUTH.
  #22  
Old Oct 16, '09, 1:56 pm
clmowry clmowry is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2004
Posts: 2,713
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustaServant View Post
I remember many years ago when I was a Baptist I got into a discussion with a fundamentalist preacher on the subject of inter-racial dating/marriage. He of course was dead set against it and provided a few scripture verses to 'prove' it. I pointed out the verses were taken out of context and showed him why. I continued to insist that he find anywhere in the Bible that spoke against inter-racial relationships. He became rather frustrated and said:
"Does everything have to be in Bible for it to be true"?
Eye opening statement.
LOL.

That's just funny.

Chuck
__________________
Take this love, therefore, as the end that is set before you, to which you are to refer all that you say, and, whatever you narrate, narrate it in such a manner that he to whom you are discoursing on hearing may believe, on believing may hope, on hoping may love. - St. Augustine
  #23  
Old Oct 16, '09, 2:00 pm
clmowry clmowry is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2004
Posts: 2,713
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlhargus View Post
I can show scripture where DIVINE ORAL TRADITION, was directly hand delivered by God, thru our Lord and God Jesus Christ himself. He personally taught that DIVINE ORAL TRADITION to the apostles and SENT them to TEACH that ORAL TRADITION to the whole world. So there was no need to breath those Divine Traditions, Jesus hand delivered them directly to the apostles. It was only nescessary after he ascended to breath those Written Traditions to clarify some of those Oral Traditions.

Christ's teachings to the apostles were all Oral Tradition and Traditioned by Christ to his apostles. [1Thes2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye RECEIVED the WORD OF GOD which ye HEARD of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is IN TRUTH, the WORD OF GOD, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.]

Christ wrote nothing and the apostles wrote only to already established churches who had received, and was already living that Oral Word of God, taught them from the Apostolic Oral Tradition. Some of the Oral Word of God was latter written down and gathered into a canon of books in 382 A.D.. The epistles were written for the most part to clarify or solve problems in the community.

2Tim1:13 HOLD FAST the form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 THAT GOOD THING which was COMMITTED unto thee KEEP BY THE HOLY GHOST which dwelleth IN US.



JL: Divine Traditions whether WORD or EPISTLE cannot be changed, err or contradict each other, they must always agree. Better understanding of oral or written Traditions can and does evolve, such as which books belong to the canon of the BIBLE took almost four hundred years to evolve. Also the understanding of the Trinity evolved.

2Tim1:13 HOLD FAST the form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 THAT GOOD THING which was COMMITTED unto thee KEEP BY THE HOLY GHOST which dwelleth IN US.

2Tim2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And THE THINGS that THOU HAST HEARD OF ME among many witnesses, THE SAME COMMIT thou TO FAITHFUL MEN, who shall be ABLE TO TEACH OTHERS also.

1Tim6:20 Timothy, KEEP THAT WHICH IS COMMITTED TO THY TRUST, avoiding profane and vain babblings,

Philip4:9 THOSE THINGS, which YE HAVE both LEARNED, and RECEIVED, and HEARD, and SEEN IN ME, DO: and the God of peace shall be with you.]

There are many good scripture examples of tradition, the burden of proof is on you, you must SHOW SOLA SCRIPTURA, which is a tradition of men, made a doctrine of God around 1520, [Jer 23:36 36 But you must not mention the oracle of the LORD again, because EVERY MAN'S OWN WORD BECOMES HIS ORACLE and so you distort the words of the living God,...] Or you must show scripture saying all oral tradition has now been included in the written tradition=scripture, which you cannot do. Paul says in 2 Thes, OUR GOSPEL, brethren, WHETHER word=oral OR epistle=written.

Jn14: 26: But the Comforter, which is THE HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and BRING all things TO your REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I have SAID UNTO YOU.

The Church, the pillar and ground of truth, 1Tm3:15, which Christ pormised to be with till the end and guide into ALL TRUTH is guided by that same Holy Spirit who breathed the Scriptures.
See. Now we are on to a different subject.

"Chuckism" at work. (Is it sinful to crack myself up. Hehe.)

Chuck
__________________
Take this love, therefore, as the end that is set before you, to which you are to refer all that you say, and, whatever you narrate, narrate it in such a manner that he to whom you are discoursing on hearing may believe, on believing may hope, on hoping may love. - St. Augustine
  #24  
Old Oct 16, '09, 2:13 pm
jlhargus jlhargus is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2006
Posts: 2,476
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clmowry View Post
See. Now we are on to a different subject.

"Chuckism" at work. (Is it sinful to crack myself up. Hehe.)

Chuck
JL: It always takes me awhile to catch up. I got a chuckle out of Chuckism.
__________________
Tiber swim team 73. Jn14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. (Christ) Lk1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: (Mary) for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. The Ultimate truth is CHRIST who is TRUTH.
  #25  
Old Oct 16, '09, 3:37 pm
Randy Carson's Avatar
Randy Carson Randy Carson is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: September 22, 2006
Posts: 17,312
Religion: Protestant Convert to Catholicism
Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drawmack View Post
Doesn't the Bible tell us to evangalize?
Sure. The list was weak. Try this:

Traditions Protestants Can Accept

Are there extra-biblical Church traditions that Protestants will accept? Can even one be found?

In order to determine this fairly, we must evaluate each doctrine that is proposed as a candidate according to several criteria:

a) The doctrine in question is accepted by the Protestants to whom one is speaking
b) The doctrine is not stated in Scripture
c) The doctrine is not implied by Scripture
d) The doctrine has an extrabiblical history to which one can appeal as an alternative, extrascriptural basis

The following doctrines are proposed as those which meet all of the criteria above and are agreed to be binding upon the consciences of all believers:

1. The canon of the New Testament
2. Public revelation has ended
3. There are to be no more Apostles

If any one of these three doctrines meet the criteria above, then it has been proven that Protestants have accepted teaching that has come by a source other the Bible Alone; thus, sola scriptura is false.


Condensed from:

Doctrines Known by Tradition
By James Akin
http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defenso...nes_known.html
__________________
Randy + † +
Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79

Some barrels contain fish that need to be shot.

“Men today have lost their way. But this is not surprising, for men have always lost their way. The difference is that now they have lost their address.” (G.K.Chesterton)
  #26  
Old Oct 16, '09, 3:41 pm
Randy Carson's Avatar
Randy Carson Randy Carson is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: September 22, 2006
Posts: 17,312
Religion: Protestant Convert to Catholicism
Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Church Militant View Post
I would much appreciate it if someone one, (especially you who are n-Cs) would display and clarify for me just precisely where it is in the Word of God that it specifically states that everything that Christians believe and practice must be found within its pages.

This also is for some of you Catholics that come in here and all but demand to know where some Catholic teaching or practice is found in the Bible.

The reason I am posting this is because I have read the Bible (all 73 books of it!) many times and have yet to find anything that supports this idea. I have concluded that the Catholic Church is correct in teaching that the Bible does not say this and therefore it is error.

I want all of us Catholics to understand that this is a fundamental doctrinal error of some communities of n-C Christianity and so there is no reason to get distressed when someone comes at you with this stuff, because the fact of the matter is ...it's NOT in the Bible itself.
Well said, CM.

I like this:

Answering the Question, “Where is that in the Bible?”

The Evangelical starts with the assumption that scripture existed first and that tradition was slowly and incrementally added to it as time progressed. However, the original deposit of faith was given to the Apostles years before New Testament Scripture was ever penned. The Church was founded on this truth from Christ. Some of this deposit was then written in Scripture, some was scrupulously passed from bishop to bishop as oral tradition, and some was later clarified as dogma by the agreement of the bishops in the councils of the Church.

These sources, of course, should be expected not to contradict each other. If the Church teaches something as true, it is justifiable to check that it is not contradicted by Scripture. But if the Church teaches something and the Bible is silent or ambiguous, that does not mean the teaching is any less truly a part of the original deposit of faith given the Apostles. The focus must shift from what is biblical to what is true. The first is always contained in the second, but all of the second is not necessarily contained in the first.

When an Evangelical asks, “Where is that doctrine in the Bible?”, the correct response is “First show me from Scripture why you believe all Christian doctrines must be in the Bible.” It can be frustrating for Evangelicals to confront this issue, but it is important for them to understand the lack of biblical basis for their question. Truth is at issue here.

Adapted from Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David B. Currie, pp.61-62.
__________________
Randy + † +
Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79

Some barrels contain fish that need to be shot.

“Men today have lost their way. But this is not surprising, for men have always lost their way. The difference is that now they have lost their address.” (G.K.Chesterton)
  #27  
Old Oct 17, '09, 12:03 pm
Awful Things Awful Things is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 2, 2008
Posts: 257
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drawmack View Post
Doesn't the Bible say that ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ
No, it doesn't. St. Jerome supposedly said that.

Last edited by Awful Things; Oct 17, '09 at 12:14 pm.
  #28  
Old Oct 17, '09, 12:09 pm
Drawmack Drawmack is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 5, 2009
Posts: 2,461
Religion: Christian
Send a message via AIM to Drawmack Send a message via Yahoo to Drawmack
Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teachccd View Post
So then, in light of your reference to the CCC you would acknowledge that our understanding of the New Testament of Sacred Scripture as being the 27 acknowledged books are a part of this "God breathed" Tradition. And you would also acknowledge that our understanding ot the Trinity is also a God breathed Tradition since the term Trinity and many of our understandings are not directly found in Scripture.

Can we start there?
Nope! We can start with my original question or you can find someone else to play semantic games with.
  #29  
Old Oct 17, '09, 12:10 pm
Drawmack Drawmack is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 5, 2009
Posts: 2,461
Religion: Christian
Send a message via AIM to Drawmack Send a message via Yahoo to Drawmack
Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustaServant View Post
You missed the point.
Didn't say any of those things were bad, just said they were part of Protestant 'tradition' that has no Biblical basis.
And, I pointed out that they do have a Biblical basis.
  #30  
Old Oct 17, '09, 12:12 pm
Drawmack Drawmack is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 5, 2009
Posts: 2,461
Religion: Christian
Send a message via AIM to Drawmack Send a message via Yahoo to Drawmack
Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teachccd View Post
How does Saint Paul's comment in 2 Thess. 2:15 parallel itself to paragraph 81 in the CCC? And if it doesn't, why not?
Has the practice of the Sacred Traditions known as the Sacraments changed? If so then those Traditions have not been stood firm in.
Closed Thread

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
6648CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: njlisa
6273Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: hazcompat
5217Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
4631Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4330Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
4055OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: Fischli
3295For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: GLam8833
3261Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Herculees
2830Let's Empty Purgatory 2
Last by: Jeannie52
2449SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 8:48 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.