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  #31  
Old Oct 17, '09, 12:14 pm
Drawmack Drawmack is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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Originally Posted by mlchance View Post


-- Mark L. Chance.
The claim that Jesus instituted them is a historic claim. The Magisterium does not claim infallibility in matters of history. Therefore, prove that this historical claim is true!
  #32  
Old Oct 17, '09, 12:21 pm
bookgirl32 bookgirl32 is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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Originally Posted by Drawmack View Post
Can you show me where in the Bible it calls tradition God breathed?
That's the whole point of this thread. It doesn't have to be in the Bible. Tradition and Scripture cannot, however, be contradictory. So I don't have to tell you where the Bible says it is God breathed, but you do have to tell me where the Bible says that it is not. (And I mean tradition with a capital T, not "traditions of men").
  #33  
Old Oct 17, '09, 2:32 pm
Awful Things Awful Things is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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Originally Posted by Drawmack View Post
Can you show me where in the Bible it calls tradition God breathed? Additionally, if tradition is God breathed then why can it chan, err I mean evolve?
No problem. As "God-breathed" or "inspired by God" refers to the guidance of the breath of God, which is a synonym for the Holy Spirit, some passages would be 1 Peter 1:12, which describes the oral teachings (i.e. "preaching") of the apostles as :

"It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things."

I think this is fair enough. After all, the passage to which you refer, 2 Tim. 3:16 was (according to verse 15) refering to the Scriptures that the readers knew "from childhood", yet by the addition of 27 more books that weren't known "from childhood", the Scriptures (as you sarcastically put it in the quoted portion) "chan, err I mean evolved".

Feel free to ask if these same oral teachings are the ones that were then passed on as Tradition through the Church, and I'll provide support for that while you, at the same time, support (without falling upon the authority of tradition or the infallible authority of the Church) the inspiration of the book of Hebrews as well as others.
  #34  
Old Oct 17, '09, 4:19 pm
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

I look at traditions with the capital "T" as the understandings of scripture as handed down by the Church in her doctrines. This comes through quite clearly in the following:

Titus 1:7-9
Quote:
For a bishop, as God's steward, must be blameless; he must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of goodness, master of himself, upright, holy, and self-controlled; he must hold firm to the sure word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to confute those who contradict it.
Romans 16:17
Quote:
I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.
Eph 4:20-21
Quote:
You did not so learn Christ!--assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus.
Col 2:6-8
Quote:
As therefore you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so live in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.
2 Thess 2:15
Quote:
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
The "sure word as taught" is IMHO something quite different than "the word" as I might wish to interpret it. The "sure word as taught" is not negotiable and it certainly has nothing to do with any whim or creative thought that might be put forth by someone that separates themselves from the traditions and teachings of Christ Church. Scripture describes the Church as the pillar and bulwark of the truth[1 Tim 3:15]. We must look to the pillar and bulwark of the truth to know the "sure word as taught."

God bless.
  #35  
Old Oct 17, '09, 4:57 pm
Awful Things Awful Things is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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Originally Posted by Pax View Post
I look at traditions with the capital "T" as the understandings of scripture as handed down by the Church in her doctrines.
I would clarify this some. Tradition couldn't be the understanding of Scripture as, in most cases, the Tradition preceded the Scriptures. In fact, it could be argued that Scripture is the understanding of Tradition that came from the early Church councils looking at the commonly held Traditions of the time to determine which Scriptures were inspired.

I understand Tradition to be the teachings of Christ and the apostles as practiced and articulated through the centuries. It is as separate from Scripture as the left eye is from the right, but as necessarily intertwined with Scripture as the left and the right eyes are in forming accurate depth perception.

Another analogy would be, in a sport, the relationship between the book of rules and the coaching tradition (one coach who learned from another, who learned from another, back through the history of the game). The book of rules, as with Scripture, materially articulates the concept of baseball, but it would be a poor guide to a group of kids if not for the demonstrative guidance of a coach. The magisterium (the umpire) takes into account the book of rules and the precedent of past calls to make authoritative calls during the game.
  #36  
Old Oct 17, '09, 9:58 pm
Ignatius Ignatius is online now
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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Originally Posted by JustaServant View Post
Hmmm,,,,things NCs believe that are not in the Bible. Lets see.
1. Evangelistic appeals.
2. VBS.
3. Youth groups and youth pastors.
4. Church picnics,
5. Praise bands.
6. Bible Colleges.
7. Short hair on men, long hair on women. ( I once knew a preacher who insisted Jesus had a crewcut)
I'm sure there's more, but I can't think of any right now.
Alter calls, definitely an extra-biblical practice.
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  #37  
Old Oct 18, '09, 5:10 am
Awful Things Awful Things is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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Originally Posted by Ignatius View Post
Alter calls, definitely an extra-biblical practice.
As are the sinner's prayer and the selection of a pastor by elders or popular vote of the congregation.
  #38  
Old Oct 18, '09, 5:18 am
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Randy Carson Randy Carson is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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Originally Posted by Drawmack View Post
Can you show me where in the Bible it calls tradition God breathed? Additionally, if tradition is God breathed then why can it chan, err I mean evolve?
Drawmack-

I saw that you were annoyed that Teachccd failed to answer this question directly (post #28).

I think that there are numerous passages that reflect the idea that the oral teaching of the Apostles was inspired by God.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

Paul declares that the teaching delivered to the Thessalonians is not that of men but is the word of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:6

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the tradition you received from us.

There's more, but 1 Th. 2:13 should be sufficient.
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  #39  
Old Oct 18, '09, 5:23 am
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Drawmack-

Having addressed your post (see above), can you now address mine?

Post #25 provided examples of extra-biblical Traditions which I believe even Protestants would agree are binding upon the consciences of all believers.

Do you agree or disagree with that argument?

If not, why not?

If so, what does this mean for the doctrine of sola scriptura?
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  #40  
Old Oct 18, '09, 5:30 am
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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Originally Posted by bookgirl32 View Post
That's the whole point of this thread. It doesn't have to be in the Bible.
Okay, I get that. However, the claim about Sacred Traditions is based on the notion of Apostolic Succession. This his is a historic claim, and the Church does not claim infallibility in matters of history. So, fine it doesn't have to be in the Bible, you can use any reasonable historic document. But prove this historic claim and do so in the face of 1 Tim's requirements to be a Bishop and the fact that different sects and rites practice these traditions different, some even subscribe a different meaning to them.

Quote:
Tradition and Scripture cannot, however, be contradictory.
This is why I never have and never will say that Catholics are not Christians or act like Catholics need to be converted. So long as what you teach isn't contrary to Gospel you're good to go in my book. But, that doesn't mean I accept those teachings as necessary either.

Quote:
So I don't have to tell you where the Bible says it is God breathed, but you do have to tell me where the Bible says that it is not.
Do you believe that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Apostolic Church? Do you believe that the Catholic Church is the only Church with the full deposit of the faith? Do you believe that you should seek to convert me to Catholicism?

Okay, now I see no need to convert you because I hold different beliefs on what Church is than you do, but you should be seeking to convert me according to the Catholic teachings on ecumenism in the CCC. This being the case, I really don't have to show you anything because I believe that you can be saved as easily where you are as I can where I am. So, if you really want to stand by this statement what you're saying is -- I don't have to answer your questions about Catholicism; You have to show me why we're wrong. You can say that all you want, but it's probably not going to get many converts.

Quote:
(And I mean tradition with a capital T, not "traditions of men").
Those are your beliefs, I do not want to misrepresent myself. I use the capital T for clarity when speaking of both. I simply don't wish to misrepresent my beliefs. Much like those Catholics that refuse to capitalize words like Protestant or say things like POR-TEST-ANT.
  #41  
Old Oct 18, '09, 5:37 am
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Carson View Post
Drawmack-

I saw that you were annoyed that Teachccd failed to answer this question directly (post #28).

I think that there are numerous passages that reflect the idea that the oral teaching of the Apostles was inspired by God.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

Paul declares that the teaching delivered to the Thessalonians is not that of men but is the word of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:6

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the tradition you received from us.

There's more, but 1 Th. 2:13 should be sufficient.
Yes, the oral tradition of the Apostles was inspired by God. At a time when most people couldn't read. oral tradition was inspired. In a time when the oral tradition had not been committed to paper the oral tradition was inspired.

However, the Scriptures call Scripture God Breathed. This elevates scripture to a level above just inspiration. A priest, or ministered, might be inspired this weekend to give a homily, or sermon, which really reaches his sheep. Sure that's inspired, but that doesn't mean that his words are God breathed.

There's a big difference between being inspired and being God breathed. In the Bible it repeated talks about God breathing life into people. To say something is God breathed is to say that it is a living creation of the creator.

Okay all that being said, you still didn't address the second part of my question.
  #42  
Old Oct 18, '09, 5:45 am
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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Originally Posted by Drawmack View Post
However, the Scriptures call Scripture God Breathed. This elevates scripture to a level above just inspiration. A priest, or ministered, might be inspired this weekend to give a homily, or sermon, which really reaches his sheep. Sure that's inspired, but that doesn't mean that his words are God breathed.

There's a big difference between being inspired and being God breathed. In the Bible it repeated talks about God breathing life into people. To say something is God breathed is to say that it is a living creation of the creator.
This is incorrect in that you are making a distinction between "inspired" and "God-breathed" that should not exist.

Inspired means "animated by God" which is the same as "God-breathed" since the breath of God is that which give life (Adam & Eve, etc.). Someone who gives a great sermon is not "inspired" in the truest sense of the word but is merely highly motivated, eloquent, etc.

The Apostles were inspired and infallible when they taught and when they wrote the scriptures.

Quote:
Okay all that being said, you still didn't address the second part of my question.
My apologies. Would you mind restating it so I don't miss it?
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  #43  
Old Oct 18, '09, 5:47 am
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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Originally Posted by Randy Carson View Post
In order to determine this fairly, we must evaluate each doctrine that is proposed as a candidate according to several criteria:

a) The doctrine in question is accepted by the Protestants to whom one is speaking
b) The doctrine is not stated in Scripture
c) The doctrine is not implied by Scripture
d) The doctrine has an extrabiblical history to which one can appeal as an alternative, extrascriptural basis
Okay, let's evaluate your list based on that.

Quote:
1. The canon of the New Testament
Okay I agree that this meets the above list.

Quote:
2. Public revelation has ended
I do not agree with this, there will be a ton of public revelation once the end times in revelation start.

Quote:
3. There are to be no more Apostles
I do not agree with this, there will be 144,000 (If we take the number literally, otherwise replace them number with the words "a whole bunch") of Apostles in the time of Revelation.

Quote:
If any one of these three doctrines meet the criteria above, then it has been proven that Protestants have accepted teaching that has come by a source other the Bible Alone; thus, sola scriptura is false.
You misunderstand sola scriptura. Sola Scriptura relates only to faith and morals. Besides, just because a person, or group of people, listened to the Holy Spirit once doesn't mean they always will as is proven by the Catholic definition of Old Testament canon.
  #44  
Old Oct 18, '09, 5:50 am
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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Originally Posted by Drawmack View Post
And, I pointed out that they do have a Biblical basis.
Drawmack-

Do you think it would be fair to say that Catholic Tradition also has a Biblical basis?

Understand that just because you are personally unfamiliar with that basis, it doesn't mean that none exists...
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  #45  
Old Oct 18, '09, 5:51 am
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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This is incorrect in that you are making a distinction between "inspired" and "God-breathed" that should not exist.
So you would say that if God inspires a homily which really reaches the congregation, then that homily is God breathed?

Quote:
Inspired means "animated by God" which is the same as "God-breathed" since the breath of God is that which give life (Adam & Eve, etc.). Someone who gives a great sermon is not "inspired" in the truest sense of the word but is merely highly motivated, eloquent, etc.
So, it is impossible for a great sermon or homily to be inspired in the truest sense of the word?

Quote:
The Apostles were inspired and infallible when they taught and when they wrote the scriptures.
So, no Apostles ever misspoke or taught something that wasn't correct and all of them left the churches they had planted with a clear understanding of the Gospel?

Quote:
My apologies. Would you mind restating it so I don't miss it?
I'm pressed for time could you go back to my original post and work from there please?
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