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  #751  
Old Nov 11, '09, 1:12 pm
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qui est ce qui est ce is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBert View Post

"My guess is that many Catholics simply don’t want to do the work. They are content to let Mother Church spoon-feed them. (They want to remain "babes in Christ" who drink "milk," as Paul says.)"
Are you serious?

The Catholic Church has more schools than any other organization in the whole world. Sapienza University was founded by Pope Boniface VIII in 1303 as Studium Urbis. With its current 145,000 students, it is the largest university in Europe. The pope established it so that Rome might become the center of learning and science.

The brightest and most intelligent brains in the world are Catholic. (St Augustine, St. Jerome, Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, St Teresa of Avila).

In my little city alone, we have 3 Catholic universities. Over 90% of parishes are affiliated with an elementary schools. We have RCIA and Bible Study, where discussion and in depth study is encouraged. For children attending public schools, virtually every parish has PSR classes.

The Catholic Church STARTED the school system in the US.
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  #752  
Old Nov 11, '09, 1:19 pm
RedBert RedBert is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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Originally Posted by qui est ce View Post
Are you serious?

The Catholic Church has more schools than any other organization in the whole world. Sapienza University was founded by Pope Boniface VIII in 1303 as Studium Urbis. With its current 145,000 students, it is the largest university in Europe. The pope established it so that Rome might become the center of learning and science.

The brightest and most intelligent brains in the world are Catholic. (St Augustine, St. Jerome, Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, St Teresa of Avila).

In my little city alone, we have 3 Catholic universities. Over 90% of parishes are affiliated with an elementary schools. We have RCIA and Bible Study, where discussion and in depth study is encouraged. For children attending public schools, virtually every parish has PSR classes.

The Catholic Church STARTED the school system in the US.
The CONTEXT was studying the Bible , the SOURCE is from Catholic.com

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0402fea3.asp
  #753  
Old Nov 11, '09, 2:08 pm
Lampo Lampo is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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Originally Posted by RedBert View Post
The CONTEXT was studying the Bible , the SOURCE is from Catholic.com

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0402fea3.asp
And from what you posted: "It’s good to reject sola scriptura and submit to the mind of the Church, but it is also good to show forth a positive love for Scripture."
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  #754  
Old Nov 11, '09, 2:35 pm
KEVIN WILCOX KEVIN WILCOX is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

The Protestant Church repudiates all claim to infallibility in interpretation of Scripture. The ultimate decision on every interpretation is left to the individual.

The Catholic Church is infallible in teaching and interpreting Scripture:

If you believe the Church can "get it wrong", it follows
  • that God has bound men to believe what is wrong ('He who does not believe will be condemned', Jn 14:12)
  • there is no certainty as to what is true and
  • that the teaching ministy of Christ was limited to a few individuals at a moment in history.
  #755  
Old Nov 11, '09, 4:06 pm
Lampo Lampo is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KEVIN WILCOX View Post
The Protestant Church repudiates all claim to infallibility in interpretation of Scripture. The ultimate decision on every interpretation is left to the individual.

The Catholic Church is infallible in teaching and interpreting Scripture:

If you believe the Church can "get it wrong", it follows
  • that God has bound men to believe what is wrong ('He who does not believe will be condemned', Jn 14:12)
  • there is no certainty as to what is true and
  • that the teaching ministy of Christ was limited to a few individuals at a moment in history.
Very, very true and well said.
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  #756  
Old Nov 11, '09, 6:06 pm
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Yankee and redbert,how do you respond to the following post by Kevin?





The Protestant Church repudiates all claim to infallibility in interpretation of Scripture. The ultimate decision on every interpretation is left to the individual.

The Catholic Church is infallible in teaching and interpreting Scripture:

If you believe the Church can "get it wrong", it follows

* that God has bound men to believe what is wrong ('He who does not believe will be condemned', Jn 14:12)
* there is no certainty as to what is true and
* that the teaching ministy of Christ was limited to a few individuals at a moment in history.
  #757  
Old Nov 11, '09, 9:03 pm
CoachSTL CoachSTL is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lev23 View Post
You say you have showed me church teaching. Maybe I missed it, but I have never seen any official Vatican statement saying 2 Peter 1:20-21 means one cannot approach the scriptures and interpret them.

If there is, then there is a problem, because I have seen some catholic apologetics say the same thing I have.

You show my "replay", but for the sake of the arguement, read 2 Peter 1 again, St.Peter's issue is not warning about interpreting the scriptures. And to be exact, he was referring to the "prophecies of scriptures". Prophecies fulfilled and that will be fulfilled by Jesus.
Lev23,

Just because you say you have never seen them, does not mean that it does not exist. Read the Catholic Catechism on interpreting the scriptures. What other Church Teaching is there?

LEV23 says: You show my "replay", but for the sake of the arguement, read 2 Peter 1 again, St.Peter's issue is not warning about interpreting the scriptures. And to be exact, he was referring to the "prophecies of scriptures". Prophecies fulfilled and that will be fulfilled by Jesus.

Still your Lev23! Can you show me any other reason, other than your personal interpretation that this is what was taught in the Church?
  #758  
Old Nov 11, '09, 9:17 pm
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raqrodriguez raqrodriguez is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Church Militant View Post
I would much appreciate it if someone one, (especially you who are n-Cs) would display and clarify for me just precisely where it is in the Word of God that it specifically states that everything that Christians believe and practice must be found within its pages.

This also is for some of you Catholics that come in here and all but demand to know where some Catholic teaching or practice is found in the Bible.

The reason I am posting this is because I have read the Bible (all 73 books of it!) many times and have yet to find anything that supports this idea. I have concluded that the Catholic Church is correct in teaching that the Bible does not say this and therefore it is error.

I want all of us Catholics to understand that this is a fundamental doctrinal error of some communities of n-C Christianity and so there is no reason to get distressed when someone comes at you with this stuff, because the fact of the matter is ...it's NOT in the Bible itself.
AMEN!!! It is so frustrating to try and make people understand that.
  #759  
Old Nov 11, '09, 9:24 pm
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raqrodriguez raqrodriguez is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustaServant View Post
I remember many years ago when I was a Baptist I got into a discussion with a fundamentalist preacher on the subject of inter-racial dating/marriage. He of course was dead set against it and provided a few scripture verses to 'prove' it. I pointed out the verses were taken out of context and showed him why. I continued to insist that he find anywhere in the Bible that spoke against inter-racial relationships. He became rather frustrated and said:
"Does everything have to be in Bible for it to be true"?
Eye opening statement.
LOL... Love that one!
  #760  
Old Nov 12, '09, 2:42 am
RedBert RedBert is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe370 View Post
Yankee and redbert,how do you respond to the following post by Kevin?





The Protestant Church repudiates all claim to infallibility in interpretation of Scripture. The ultimate decision on every interpretation is left to the individual.

The Catholic Church is infallible in teaching and interpreting Scripture:

If you believe the Church can "get it wrong", it follows

* that God has bound men to believe what is wrong ('He who does not believe will be condemned', Jn 14:12)
* there is no certainty as to what is true and
* that the teaching ministy of Christ was limited to a few individuals at a moment in history.
Well first off, the Churches do get it wrong,

In the book of Revelation , Jesus rebukes 6 Churches for their errors.
In Paul’s letters, he rebukes Churches for their errors.

Do you agree with that?

Yes and some of these Churches were founded by an Apostle.

Catholics state that the Catholic Church started at Pentecost, so what Church was Paul and Jesus correcting?

Did God bind those Christians to believe what was wrong?
Paul and Jesus (thru John) used the written Word to correct the churches.

In the Gospel of John , THE (not a) teacher of Israel, Nicodemus, gets it wrong.

in Matthew 23, the 7 Woes to the Scribes and the Pharisees,(who sit in Moses’ seat.) THE earthly authorities of Hebrew Scripture , get it wrong.
takea moment and read Matt 23

Did God bind the Jews to believe what was wrong?

So Churches, (the keepers of the infallible interpretations)do get it wrong

so did any of these points apply?
* that God has bound men to believe what is wrong ('He who does not believe will be condemned', Jn 14:12)
* there is no certainty as to what is true and
* that the teaching ministy of Christ was limited to a few individuals at a moment in history

.
No, it is the teachers that will be judged

James 3 “because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.”

The reality I see is that unquestionable authority has let to unimaginable abuse of power.
  #761  
Old Nov 12, '09, 8:12 am
CoachSTL CoachSTL is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drawmack View Post
Can you show me where in the Bible it calls tradition God breathed? Additionally, if tradition is God breathed then why can it chan, err I mean evolve?
Drawmack,

No one can show you, because it is not written like that in Scripture. Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where Jesus says that "The Bible" is the authoritive teacher?
  #762  
Old Nov 12, '09, 9:19 am
JacobG JacobG is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KEVIN WILCOX View Post
Acts 8:31
When the Ethiopian said, "How can I understand (the prophet Isaiah), unless someone guides me?" St Philip did not say (as a good Protestant may have), "The Holy Spirit will enlighten you, keep reading" he instructed him (according to tradition).

Development of doctrine is not evolution (which is the heresy of Modernism)
No Protestant would have told the Ethiopian eunuch that the Holy Spirit would enlighten him because this man had not yet been born-again. He was still unregenerate. It was only after Philip preached Christ to him and he confessed Jesus as Lord and was baptized, that this man was born from above, or "born-again".

This further proves that God's Word, the Holy Scriptures cannot be understood by the world. (unregenerate man).
  #763  
Old Nov 12, '09, 10:08 am
Dancelittleewok Dancelittleewok is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBert View Post
Well first off, the Churches do get it wrong,

In the book of Revelation , Jesus rebukes 6 Churches for their errors.
In Paul’s letters, he rebukes Churches for their errors.

Do you agree with that?

Yes and some of these Churches were founded by an Apostle.

Catholics state that the Catholic Church started at Pentecost, so what Church was Paul and Jesus correcting?

Did God bind those Christians to believe what was wrong?
Paul and Jesus (thru John) used the written Word to correct the churches.

In the Gospel of John , THE (not a) teacher of Israel, Nicodemus, gets it wrong.

in Matthew 23, the 7 Woes to the Scribes and the Pharisees,(who sit in Moses’ seat.) THE earthly authorities of Hebrew Scripture , get it wrong.
takea moment and read Matt 23

Did God bind the Jews to believe what was wrong?

So Churches, (the keepers of the infallible interpretations)do get it wrong

so did any of these points apply?
* that God has bound men to believe what is wrong ('He who does not believe will be condemned', Jn 14:12)
* there is no certainty as to what is true and
* that the teaching ministy of Christ was limited to a few individuals at a moment in history

.
No, it is the teachers that will be judged

James 3 “because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.”

The reality I see is that unquestionable authority has let to unimaginable abuse of power.
Bert, your interpretation begs the question if you can in fact be wrong on how you interpret scripture.

To me, it seems on one hand you are saying (and correct me if I've misunderstood your post) that :Churches and their teachers get it wrong but will be judged by God--why would God judge His members' teaching if there's no guarantee about it being it right? How can be the teachers be judged against a standard if there are multiple interpretations and theology of that truth?

The only possible scenario I can see for that if its members are judged by degree of understanding--and even then, if there's no standard for truth than what is taught must be judged as well.

Also, the Pharisees aren't the Church--at least how the Catholic sees it. Generally, the Pharisees aren't a great example of Jewish behavior or truth-telling not a good example of a religious leader. If anything Matthew 23 is an example of how to follow doctrine and not put faith in the leaders themselves...

As for the churches in Revelation, Jesus rebukes them through John but not through the Bible since it is not then been fully canonized. Yes, these parishes were founded by Apostles but what he rebukes is works, not poor teaching. (See Rev 3:16-17, church of Ladicoea: thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked., Douay-Rheims translation). Frequently, Jesus says "I know thy works."

Might I interest you on how Catholics view Scripture via the Catechism:?
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  #764  
Old Nov 12, '09, 10:11 am
Dancelittleewok Dancelittleewok is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobG View Post
No Protestant would have told the Ethiopian eunuch that the Holy Spirit would enlighten him because this man had not yet been born-again. He was still unregenerate. It was only after Philip preached Christ to him and he confessed Jesus as Lord and was baptized, that this man was born from above, or "born-again".

This further proves that God's Word, the Holy Scriptures cannot be understood by the world. (unregenerate man).
If that is indeed the case, then it serves as an example on we need more than a Bible since it cannot by itself make one "born-again." Church leaders are needed.
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  #765  
Old Nov 12, '09, 10:16 am
yankee_drifter yankee_drifter is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe370 View Post
Yankee and redbert,how do you respond to the following post by Kevin?

The Protestant Church repudiates all claim to infallibility in interpretation of Scripture. The ultimate decision on every interpretation is left to the individual.

The Catholic Church is infallible in teaching and interpreting Scripture:

If you believe the Church can "get it wrong", it follows

* that God has bound men to believe what is wrong ('He who does not believe will be condemned', Jn 14:12)
* there is no certainty as to what is true and
* that the teaching ministy of Christ was limited to a few individuals at a moment in history.
Jesus expected the people of His day to interpret the Scriptures.He never once said go to the synagogue and have the rabbi interpret. He used such terms as "search the Scriptures" (John 5:39), "have you not read?" (Matt. 12:3; 12:5; 19:4; 21:16,42; 22:31), "is it not written in your law?" (John 10:34; Luke 10:26). This shows that the people were obligated to read and interpret the Scriptures. Furthermore, He quoted the Scriptures as the final source of authority (Matt. 22:29-32; Mark 7:9-13) and He always showed the consequences of failing to do so, e.g., "You err, not knowing the Scriptures..." (Matt. 22:29), "...Thus making void the word of God through your tradition" (Mark 7:13). When asked: What is Truth, Jesus said: Thy Word is Truth.

After the church was established, the apostles required that people make a private interpretation of Scripture (Acts 9:22; 18:28) and that's exactly what they did. (Acts 17:11; 2 Tim. 3:15). When churches began to be established as a result of the preaching of God's Word and when the New Testament Scriptures began to be written, never in one instance did the apostles and prophets declare that private interpretation must now cease because the church was not the official interpreter of the Scriptures. They did not direct the people to an infallible interpreter of the Word, but to the Word itself.
Christ never promised infallibility to any church. The infant churches already had false teachers/doctrines creeping in.

Joe, let me ask you this: Why does the roman catholic church have unanimous interpretation on only a handful of Scripture passages?

"As far as I have been able to document, only seven passages of Scripture have had their senses partially (not fully) defined by the extraordinary magisterium. These definitions were made by the Council of Trent" (church of John Neumann)


There isn't even unanimous consent among the church fathers.
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