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  #16  
Old Aug 14, '17, 4:50 am
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: Do Catholics believe our reason is fallen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by detles View Post
One of the reasons I felt drawn to Calvinist theology is the idea of total depravity. That's not the idea that people are all bad, or as bad as they could possibly be, but that every part of our nature is fallen: our bodies are fallen, our minds are fallen, our wills are fallen, our emotions are fallen. And, our reason is fallen, so we cannot simply reason our way to God.

This resonated with me because I know that things that had seemed silly or wrong to me before my conversion made sense after. God absolutely gave me the grace to receive the truth of the gospel.

The more extreme consequences of total depravity I'm not sure I agree with--I don't know that God actually sees our best work as filthy rags because they are tainted by our sin. However, I definitely believe that, absent God's grace in our lives and work in our hearts, we cannot come to accept spiritual truth.

Does Catholic theology hold that we can reason our way to faith? Does it teach that grace is required for spiritual understanding?
This is one of the most relevant Church teachings in regard to you question, from the Catechism:
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42


Man cannot possibly be saved without God, and yet God won't save us without us. In fact, St Augustine put it just this way. "He who made you without your consent won't save you without your consent".

A very critical distinction between Catholicism and Calvinism, which teaches, essentially, that He who made you without your consent saves-or damns- you without your consent.
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  #17  
Old Yesterday, 6:33 pm
mattp0625 mattp0625 is offline
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Default Re: Do Catholics believe our reason is fallen?

Catholic catechism indicates faith and reason can interact.

Luther had less than nice things to say about reason (to put it mildly)
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  #18  
Old Yesterday, 7:39 pm
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jcrichton jcrichton is offline
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Default Re: Do Catholics believe our reason is fallen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by detles View Post
One of the reasons I felt drawn to Calvinist theology is the idea of total depravity. That's not the idea that people are all bad, or as bad as they could possibly be, but that every part of our nature is fallen: our bodies are fallen, our minds are fallen, our wills are fallen, our emotions are fallen. And, our reason is fallen, so we cannot simply reason our way to God.

This resonated with me because I know that things that had seemed silly or wrong to me before my conversion made sense after. God absolutely gave me the grace to receive the truth of the gospel.

The more extreme consequences of total depravity I'm not sure I agree with--I don't know that God actually sees our best work as filthy rags because they are tainted by our sin. However, I definitely believe that, absent God's grace in our lives and work in our hearts, we cannot come to accept spiritual truth.

Does Catholic theology hold that we can reason our way to faith? Does it teach that grace is required for spiritual understanding?
Hi!

I will offer one passage to ponder... if man is completely deprave, how was Abel able to offer to Yahweh God his Sacrificial Offering... and why did it please God?

...any theology that espouses depravity and lack of freewill cannot but contradict the very first demonstration of Worship in Sacred Scriptures.

Maran atha!

Angel

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  #19  
Old Today, 6:51 am
LatinRight LatinRight is offline
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Default Re: Do Catholics believe our reason is fallen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcrichton View Post
Hi!

I will offer one passage to ponder... if man is completely deprave, how was Abel able to offer to Yahweh God his Sacrificial Offering... and why did it please God?

...any theology that espouses depravity and lack of freewill cannot but contradict the very first demonstration of Worship in Sacred Scriptures.

Maran atha!

Angel



God bless Jcrichton and every readers of the CAF.



THE DEPRAVITY OF A NATURAL/CARNAL MAN CAUSED BY THE FALL


Rom.8:6-8;
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.



1 cor.2:14;
But the natural man does not receives the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



Rom.3:10:18;

10 As it written.
“There is no one righteous, not even one;

11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.

12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”


13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”

14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”

15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;

16 ruin and misery mark their ways,

17 and the way of peace they do not know.”

18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”




Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

Everything we have is a gift of God.
He made everything, and we are nothing without Him and we can do nothing without Him.



THE QUESTION IS
As a natural/carnal man is so much depraved by the fall;
How was Abel able to offer to Yahweh God his Sacrificial Offering... and why did it please God?



The Scripture and the teachings of the Catholic Church helps us to answer the above question.


Rom.11:2-5;
2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.
Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:

3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”?

4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


As we see above, from the fall, God always reserved for Himself His elect, Abel was the first.



God is the One who performed the Sacrificial Offering through Abel His first elect.


Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”


Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, "In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us." (#329.2)


Aquinas said,God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.



ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
"For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it."


De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
"It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL."


In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.

Our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God's operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.



God bless Jcrichton and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight
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