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  #31  
Old Aug 9, '17, 11:26 am
James248 James248 is offline
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Default Re: How hell could possibly be justified?

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Originally Posted by STT View Post
What do you mean with simply? You mean they have no reason?
They have no good reason.
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  #32  
Old Aug 9, '17, 11:26 am
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CB Catholic CB Catholic is offline
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Default Re: How hell could possibly be justified?

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Why should we blame those individuals who can rationalize evil? Are you saying that we can rationalize evil?
What I am saying is that these people are in their right mind and have sufficient intelligence and choose to do evil, they know it is wrong and do it anyway because of some desire for personal satisfaction, power, glory, etc. They know the difference between good and evil, but choose to do the evil.

If they were insane or unable to reason (such as a child or severely mentally challenged person might be) that is a different story. The act may be evil, but the person cannot be held accountable.
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  #33  
Old Aug 9, '17, 11:29 am
STT STT is offline
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Default Re: How hell could possibly be justified?

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Originally Posted by CB Catholic View Post
What I am saying is that these people are in their right mind and have sufficient intelligence and choose to do evil, they know it is wrong and do it anyway because of some desire for personal satisfaction, power, glory, etc. They know the difference between good and evil, but choose to do the evil.

If they were insane or unable to reason (such as a child or severely mentally challenged person might be) that is a different story. The act may be evil, but the person cannot be held accountable.
So according to you there are rational people who really believe that what they do is wrong. Isn't rationality in favor of goodness? If not, how we could possibly have any moral system?
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  #34  
Old Aug 9, '17, 11:32 am
STT STT is offline
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Default Re: How hell could possibly be justified?

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They have no good reason.
Is capacity to serve in our nature?
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  #35  
Old Aug 9, '17, 11:35 am
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Default Re: How hell could possibly be justified?

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Isn't an evil act an irrational act? Are you saying that rational act could be evil also!?
What you are missing is that there can be rational thinking behind the evil. That rational thinking used to do evil by choice is what leads a person to hell. He rationally decided to choose to do the evil. You do not have to be irrational or insane to do evil. You can choose it, knowing it is wrong. And perfectly rational people do this all the time. Ask any judge or jury. Rational people are convicted of evil deeds and are punished for them all the time.

You may consider evil an irrational thing, but the choice to do it is not, if a person is not insane or mentally incompetent. THAT is what leads to hell.
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  #36  
Old Aug 9, '17, 11:39 am
STT STT is offline
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Default Re: How hell could possibly be justified?

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What you are missing is that there can be rational thinking behind the evil. That rational thinking used to do evil by choice is what leads a person to hell. He rationally decided to choose to do the evil. You do not have to be irrational or insane to do evil. You can choose it, knowing it is wrong. And perfectly rational people do this all the time. Ask any judge or jury. Rational people are convicted of evil deeds and are punished for them all the time.

You may consider evil an irrational thing, but the choice to do it is not, if a person is not insane or mentally incompetent. THAT is what leads to hell.
So you mean that there are people who fool themselves?
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  #37  
Old Aug 9, '17, 11:42 am
BobCatholic BobCatholic is offline
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Default Re: who goes to hell

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But wouldn't person #2 repent even then if he or she was able to understand God desires to forgive their guilt? What of the very many people who grow up in families that teach them the habit of hiding their guilt from fear of punishment?
Person#2 had the chance during life to repent and didn't. If one is in front of God, time ran out.

It is regret.

Like the guy who walks out of a casino after losing his rent check. The landlord is not going to be happy with him.

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. My other dog didn't have that privilege of having a good upbringing. But that's not his fault.
That's something I struggle with - we are created imperfect, and imperfections cause people's free will to be negatively affected. I say that free will is a cruel joke at best or non-existent at worst - and I believe most are somewhere in that range.
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  #38  
Old Aug 9, '17, 11:47 am
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Default Re: How hell could possibly be justified?

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So according to you there are rational people who really believe that what they do is wrong. Isn't rationality in favor of goodness? If not, how we could possibly have any moral system?
Following your line of thinking, no one would be convicted of a crime, because they would not be rational and choose evil. Sorry, that is not "rational". Even the law recognizes that evil can be a rational choice deserving of punishment.

I think the problem is that you don't like the idea of hell, and you are just making circular arguments playing games with words because you can't think of anything else. You don't want to believe? Fine. Just say it. That is a lot more acceptable and honest than making circular arguments.
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  #39  
Old Aug 9, '17, 11:47 am
STT STT is offline
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Default Re: who goes to hell

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There are two types of people who go to hell.

One who sees God, gives him the middle finger and is GLAD he's going to hell. He hates God and can't wait to get out of his face. He moons God as he enters the elevator going down.

The other one finally sees God. Oh...my...gosh....He is so loving and kind, and here I lived like a complete and utter sinner. I feel so guilty and I can't look him in the eye, I really let him down. This person jumps into hell to avoid all the huge amount of guilt. This person goes to hell and weeps.

Imagine if you met Steve Urkel. Depending on your personality, you'll either think that hanging around with him is hell or heaven. If you're a huge star trek fan, you're in heaven, you'll be debating Kirk vs Picard and having talks about how technology like that could be made. If you got nothing in common with him, then hanging around with him is hell.

God is the same way. If you understand him, and get him, then you want to love him and being with God is heaven. But if you don't get him, don't understand him, you don't love him and don't want to be with him. Being with God would be hellish in that case. Hell, would be a mercy since they'll suffer less there than if they were forced to be with God.
Those example make no sense to me. Just a imperfect being can sin. We are created imperfect!
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  #40  
Old Aug 9, '17, 5:07 pm
James248 James248 is offline
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Default Re: How hell could possibly be justified?

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Is capacity to serve in our nature?
Yes. To serve the Lord.
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I am the gate. Whoever enters by me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture. John 10:9
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  #41  
Old Aug 9, '17, 6:25 pm
Reepicheep Reepicheep is offline
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Default Re: How hell could possibly be justified?

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Or he makes a rational choice and manage to resist sin by making a rational decision constantly. So according to what we said either what we performed is no sin because we were irrational or we manage to resist sin and stay rational. So what is the Hell for? Nobody is going there. How can you rationalize Hell?

You seem to think that no rational person can commit a sin. If that is what you think, then you are mistaken. It is possible for a rational person to commit a sin.

Edit:
STT, will you define the word 'rational' for us? It might be that we do not mean the same thing by that word.
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  #42  
Old Aug 13, '17, 10:51 am
STT STT is offline
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Default Re: How hell could possibly be justified?

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You seem to think that no rational person can commit a sin. If that is what you think, then you are mistaken. It is possible for a rational person to commit a sin.
What does make a rational person to sin then? Temptation?

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Edit:
STT, will you define the word 'rational' for us? It might be that we do not mean the same thing by that word.
Rational: based on or in accordance with reason or logic
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  #43  
Old Aug 13, '17, 11:02 am
STT STT is offline
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Default Re: How hell could possibly be justified?

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Following your line of thinking, no one would be convicted of a crime, because they would not be rational and choose evil. Sorry, that is not "rational". Even the law recognizes that evil can be a rational choice deserving of punishment.
Is morality a rational system dealing with good and bad?
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  #44  
Old Aug 13, '17, 11:13 am
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Vico Vico is offline
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Default Re: How hell could possibly be justified?

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How could possibly God create Hell and justify it knowing the fact that just irrational people goes against God's plan for us, goodness? Why should God torture irrational people?
First God creates the simple human nature with immortal rational soul and mortal body, which would not naturally know Him (Beatific Vision) in the afterlife. Then God gives the gift of His supernatural grace that a particular human can have that Beatific Vision if that person uses that supernatural gift with free will choice to be good. Hell is an eternal afterlife state without the Beatific Vision.

Supernatural gifts are beyond those of created nature.
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  #45  
Old Aug 13, '17, 12:41 pm
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ANV ANV is offline
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Default Re: How hell could possibly be justified?

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First God creates the simple human nature with immortal rational soul and mortal body, which would not naturally know Him (Beatific Vision) in the afterlife. Then God gives the gift of His supernatural grace that a particular human can have that Beatific Vision if that person uses that supernatural gift with free will choice to be good. Hell is an eternal afterlife state without the Beatific Vision.

Supernatural gifts are beyond those of created nature.
According to what this supernatural gift is given?
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