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  #31  
Old Aug 12, '17, 8:35 am
Roseeurekacross Roseeurekacross is offline
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Default Re: Annulments: Reasons for Decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by theodoric View Post
I'm not interested in turnabout for rhetorical debate - I actually want to understand how the Church responds to difficult situations. I presented a possible life situation in a relationship, where infinite possibilities can occur, unrestricted by rules and parameters. The purpose of the hypothetical was to flesh-out how the hard-situation would be addressed within the rules of Canon Law, which are concrete. It's not a matter of whether it's possible in the abstract (as in, could someone type the letters on his computer), but whether it's possible within the Code. And if it is, the probability is relevant to helping understand the process.

If someone actually knows, I would appreciate a clarification.
Email Holy Father, Pope Francis.

But I will say, annulment processes are totally confidential. To the extent if you meet your Parish annulment officer in the street , you pretend you don't know each other. Confidentially is treated with the utmost protocol as possible.
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  #32  
Old Aug 12, '17, 12:19 pm
otjm otjm is offline
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Default Re: Annulments: Reasons for Decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by theodoric View Post
I'm not interested in turnabout for rhetorical debate - I actually want to understand how the Church responds to difficult situations. I presented a possible life situation in a relationship, where infinite possibilities can occur, unrestricted by rules and parameters. The purpose of the hypothetical was to flesh-out how the hard-situation would be addressed within the rules of Canon Law, which are concrete. It's not a matter of whether it's possible in the abstract (as in, could someone type the letters on his computer), but whether it's possible within the Code. And if it is, the probability is relevant to helping understand the process.

If someone actually knows, I would appreciate a clarification.
I suspect that part of the question you are asking may have less to do with the decree and attached requirements (i.e. counseling) that the issue of counseling itself - as in, did the counseling change the individual sufficiently that the same matter will not arise again.

Other than asking the individual who was counseled sufficient questions to resolve any doubt, that one is not going to go anywhere. Counselors are not going to give anyone else any information concerning the counseling, short of sending (presumably) the tribunal a letter indicating that the individual has successfully completed the requirement. And lacking that letter, the counseling is (as I understand it) not completed, and the individual not free to marry.

And that confidentiality is not invoked per the Church, but per counseling (thus, State regulations).

Perhaps you are asking a question other than this, and if so, sorry I missed.

If I were considering marrying someone who had a decree of nullity, and through the process of approaching marriage (including Church related marriage prep) and found that the individual was reluctant to discuss any part of that background, I would not need to see the decree and attendant documentation, confidential or otherwise. It would be a significant red flag and I would end the path to marriage with that individual.

And if the individual did reveal what was behind the matter, I would try, with them, to explore current thinking/actions/choices to determine if there was a pattern which was going to create the same issue all over again.

I get the scenario you posited. My response is that a philanderer most often gives "tell-tales". I have heard way too many stories ending with a comment to the effect" Well The evidence was right there; I just didn't see it". I am far more inclined to think that the evidence was seen, but was constantly rationalized because the innocent party didn't want to believe it - which in turn goes to more psychological issues concerning denial and risk.

And the net of that is that even with information that the individual was a serial adulterer, there are way too many individuals who will convince themselves "This time is different". At which point, all the removal of confidentiality is for naught.
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  #33  
Old Aug 12, '17, 5:44 pm
Monicad Monicad is offline
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Default Re: Annulments: Reasons for Decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by theodoric View Post
...I don't really see the confidentiality issue, to be honest. This is NOT Catholic divorce, so it's not about what the parties did or didn't do IN the marriage. It's not about dirty-laundry, as some have implied. It's about the DEFECT in the conferrence of the sacrament at the time of the attempt to marry..
God bless you. I have to admit I am simple minded and am getting a bit lost in they hypotheticals but I do have to ask you something that has been on my mind.

Are you dating and/or engaged to be married? Do you have a close friend or relative that is engaged to be married that this is an issue for? In other words, it this a current and very personal issue for the moment that is pressing for you or are you just debating for debates sake. Either one is okay I am just curious. Thank you.
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  #34  
Old Aug 14, '17, 10:09 am
theodoric theodoric is offline
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Default Re: Annulments: Reasons for Decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by otjm View Post
I get the scenario you posited. My response is that a philanderer most often gives "tell-tales". I have heard way too many stories ending with a comment to the effect" Well The evidence was right there; I just didn't see it". I am far more inclined to think that the evidence was seen, but was constantly rationalized because the innocent party didn't want to believe it - which in turn goes to more psychological issues concerning denial and risk.

And the net of that is that even with information that the individual was a serial adulterer, there are way too many individuals who will convince themselves "This time is different". At which point, all the removal of confidentiality is for naught.
I appreciate your responses, Otjm. They are reasoned and compassionate. Thank you.

From my personal experience, it was not a matter of "if there is a problem, this time will be different". It was a question of whether 'tell-tale red flags' were an indication of a problem with the person with whom I was involved or a product of the emotional abuse inflicted through the other person. The issue was that unhinged emotional behaviour is both something which could ground a petition for annulment and something that could be a product of emotional abuse. And if there is extreme emotional behaviour, then that is also a situation when you can't count on full and honest disclosure of the circumstances of the problem: extreme emotions can cloud a persons perception of fault and what has occurred. There was a problem, but the source of the problem was extremely relevant and and there was no way to know what the source was.

Honestly, I don't think I would ever consider dating someone again who was annulled unless I could speak to both her AND her former spouse AND they were on the same page about what occurred. I know I am not the only person with this perspective.
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  #35  
Old Aug 14, '17, 11:40 am
otjm otjm is offline
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Default Re: Annulments: Reasons for Decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by theodoric View Post
I appreciate your responses, Otjm. They are reasoned and compassionate. Thank you.

From my personal experience, it was not a matter of "if there is a problem, this time will be different". It was a question of whether 'tell-tale red flags' were an indication of a problem with the person with whom I was involved or a product of the emotional abuse inflicted through the other person.
Or both. I get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theodoric View Post
The issue was that unhinged emotional behaviour is both something which could ground a petition for annulment and something that could be a product of emotional abuse.
Let's see if I have this clear (and for anyone else who may be reading): the person you were dating was overly emotionally reactive. Your questions were 1) was this due to abuse in the relationship - meaning the decree was granted on grounds other than your date's emotional status at the time of the marriage (e.g. possibly "the good of the spouses", which might be grounded on background of the spouse leading to violence in the marriage); or 2) was this due to emotional excess of your date, which characteristic was present on the day of the wedding (and the decree based, perhaps on "grave lack of discretion of judgement"; in other words, her instability).

That makes your desire to see the "what" of the tribunal's judgement understandable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theodoric View Post
And if there is extreme emotional behaviour, then that is also a situation when you can't count on full and honest disclosure of the circumstances of the problem: extreme emotions can cloud a persons perception of fault and what has occurred. There was a problem, but the source of the problem was extremely relevant and and there was no way to know what the source was.
I can understand your position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theodoric View Post
Honestly, I don't think I would ever consider dating someone again who was annulled unless I could speak to both her AND her former spouse AND they were on the same page about what occurred. I know I am not the only person with this perspective.
While I understand your dilemma, I am not sure that seeing the documentation would have made any difference, for a simple reason: whether your date's unhinged emotional behavior was due to abuse during the marriage or was a pre-existing condition as of the day of the marriage, that (the unhinged behavior) was the status of your date while you were dating. Even if it were the former - caused by an abusive spouse - psychological counseling is not magic, and the possibility of effectively "erasing", or ameliorating the condition is not what I would want to bet on. Can a person who have been abused overcome the emotions attached to it? Perhaps, and perhaps over a long period of time; and would likely be aided without addition stressors in one's life.

Marriage is difficult under normal circumstances. To which I would add, future developments (such as the later development of mental disorders) can make it grueling. I have two friends where the wife has developed serious physical and mental issues, and her husband has the patience of Job. But starting a marriage with someone who has a disability of unhinged emotional behavior is starting it in a crisis that is more likely to become worse than to go away.

I guess in the end, it would be my choice, faced with the individual you were dating, to move on, and I would not presume that any documentation from the tribunal would revise that decision.

As to your final comments, I would not need the documentation if I was dating someone who had been through a divorce and declaration of nullity, but perhaps that is because I can fairly quickly ascertain others' honesty, and am fairly good at asking questions. On the other hand, I cannot fault you for your position. And the older we all get, the more changes there are to the pool of individuals available for marriage, making it more likely that there will be those who have gone through it all.
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  #36  
Old Aug 14, '17, 1:17 pm
dans0622 dans0622 is offline
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Default Re: Annulments: Reasons for Decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by theodoric View Post
I already posted this, but it got deleted somehow...

In short, when an annulment is granted, are full reasons provided to the petitioner and respondent? Are they usually extensive?

I can imagine the decision and reasons would not be provided to third-parties due to civil privacy concerns, but is the decision and the reasons of the Tribunal not impacting on the future marriage of an annulled?
Hello,

Pardon me for answering without having read the entire thread. I will merely say that a Sentence--whether it is affirmative or negative--is supposed to provide the rationale behind the decision. The Petitioner and Respondent have the right to see (actually, have...but that's seldom done) the Sentence itself, and not just a notification of what the decision is.

"Full reasons" and "extensive" reasons....well, it depends on the individual Judge who wrote the Sentence. Some are more "extensive" than others. The validity of the Sentence depends on it being "motivated" by fact, though, so there must be something in the way of reasoning.

For reference, see canons 1611-1612 and 1614-1615.

Dan
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