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  #16  
Old Feb 17, '17, 7:05 am
nodito nodito is offline
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Default Re: IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

Quote:
Originally Posted by kc456 View Post
I would if that would be within the church teaching.

Anyway, I JUST SPOKE TO A PRIEST! He said I don't go to confession for THIS issue right now since I will still have the IUD, and that I don't get communion at mass. That is what I understood, too. I asked if the church is patient. What if I go to confession 1, 5, 10, 20 years from now? He said they will be here for me.

He also said I don't worry about the need to receive once at Easter in this case..I don't understand the specifics exactly.
I go to mass, is the gist of it.
Yes, do go to Mass.
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  #17  
Old Feb 17, '17, 7:33 am
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Usige Usige is offline
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Default Re: IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

If you were to receive at Easter it would be a further sin of sacrilege, where as not receiving at Easter is a sin against upholding the precpets of the Curch. Since you cannot be absolved then following the Easter precepts is really not the highest concern. I beleive that is what your priest was getting at.

As other say, go to mass even though you cannot receive. Pray to strengthen your relationship with God. Even though you are seperated from sacramental graces, mass and pray still offers actual graces. If in 5, 10, 20 years you have contrition that moves you to follow Church teaching She will certainly be there to welcome you.

I will only mention this out of concern and not as a parting shot of any type. Please remember that none of us know how long we will have on Earth so, while future intent to amend is admirable, it is done at the risk of being subject to judgement should we die before we expect. I have put off confession in the past while trying to come to contrition and a few days later was almost ran off the road into a ditch. If I had died I would be subject to judgment at that moment and not on a future hope that I did what is right. I only want you to keep in mind that the longer we put off doing what we should the greater risk we are in to never do so. I know I wish I had been reminded of that more often, so please understand it is from a place of brotherly love and not an uncaring admonishment.
  #18  
Old Feb 17, '17, 7:42 am
St Francis St Francis is offline
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Default Re: IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

Quote:
Originally Posted by kc456 View Post
OK, then so as I understand it, I do NOT go to confession right now, for THIS issue.
You can not go to Confession at all, because of this issue. But you can talk to the priest outside the Confessional.


Quote:
Yes, I am sorry I got it and have it. I am not ready to remove it. If he won't abstain then there is no 100%. And, yes, I am fully open to life should the IUD/condoms not prevent.
It depends on why you are "not ready to remove it." Are you not in a position to do so (money, for example), or are you not prepared to make a change?


Quote:
I will go to mass.
That is good


Quote:
My question still remains, then, that I will not be able to receive the host even once for years, if this is the case (as long as I have an IUD), to avoid receiving while in mortal sin. What kind of sin is that, then, to not receive at Easter? But it seems I cannot if I have the IUD. ???
Right, you cannot gomto Confession and you can't receive Communion. The rule is to encourage people to think about and change their lives during Lent.


Quote:
In the future, if I don't have an IUD but he uses condoms, it feels a little wrong to place the all the sin on him. We BOTH feel our family is complete and want to avoid pregnancy. But I want to abstain (I am not comfortable with NFP alone since it's not 100%). He will not abstain. So I can go to confession (to at least tell a priest the situation), and I'm in the clear?
Yes, you can talk to a priest, as mentioned above, but no one can say that you are "in the clear" as long as you are committing what is known to be a mortal sin.

WRT your husband, while you both have the same goal, to avoid pregnancy, he wants to use a sinful means of avoiding, and you want to use a means which does not involve doing something sinful. If you do not agree with his using a condom and he knows that and does it anyway, then you bear no responsibility.


Quote:
April of NEXT year this particular IUD comes out, for sure. It has to. How patient is the church with this and sin?
The Church is always happy to see people return to Christ. The problem with your situation is that you could die in the meantime, hence the urgency. We can not say where you would end up, God will see into your heart and know that, but the Church teaches us that using abc is the sort of thing which causes us to be deprived of grace in our souls and end up down below.

Quote:
What if I have an IUD for years? Am I still able to confess and then sin no more? There will be a point when an IUD would no longer even be needed. I know these are difficult questions but if I was not wrestling with this I would not be here, and I appreciate your help. If as a 60YO woman I confess for this whole thing would absolution even be possible? Though I suppose if I die before then, I go to hell???? Or am I not understanding that right? For SURE do I go to hell? Or can we possible know that? God knows what's in one's heart, right, and does that matter at all?
The problem is that you know you are doing wrong, and are continuing to do it.

It is not for SURE, absolutely and definitively, that you will go to Hell, but the Church teaches that what you are doing usually leads there. Nor does the Church teach that feeling bad about a mortal sin you are continuing to commit will necessarily reduce your guilt.


Quote:
Wait...Do I have a purpose of ammendment? I think so, just not right now. I DO intend to be in line with church teaching at some point. Just as a woman saving to get it removed, though she'd do so sooner. So DO I go to confession even if I cannot get absolution?
No, don't go to Confession until you are ready to say to God, I apologize, I did the wrong thing, and I won't do it any more, starting from now.

The reasons are that, first, I suggested you could talk with your priest to see if either of those things (appointment or saving money up) would suffice as a firm intention to stop; second, your current intention is to continue until some point in the future, which is not a firm intention to stop.

You are changing your position, which is a good thing!

Quote:
Thank you.
You're welcome. May I suggest that if you are not currently praying the Rosary, that you start? And consider a little something to give up for Lent? Not something difficult, something which would cause you to take notice but not be disruptive.

And do not forget that prayer is very powerful! When I first returned to the Church (in which I had been baptized but not raised), I had what seemed like an insoluble and serious problem. The priest told me to pray, and I blurted out: but you don't understand: I have to do something!

Twenty years later, and I now know that prayer is the most powerful thing we can do.

Pray for your fears to be dissolved; pray that your husband's heart be softened.

You are starting a winderful voyage down a road which can look scarily mysterious, and you will need to learn to trust God.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
CS Lewis–God in the Dock, 1948



  #19  
Old Feb 17, '17, 7:44 am
St Francis St Francis is offline
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Default Re: IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

Sorry, half of my last post is not useful since you talked to the priest
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
CS Lewis–God in the Dock, 1948



  #20  
Old Feb 17, '17, 9:02 am
kc456 kc456 is offline
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Default Re: IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

Very useful, thank you!

I do wonder how the church views intention to confess. What if the person dies on the way to confession? Or plans to go Saturday when it's offered but dies on Thursday? Or plans to go in 10 years and dies before then? Maybe these are big questions only God knows. People surely die all the time (suddenly) without being able to ask forgiveness at all of God, in confession or otherwise. So should a Catholic ask for forgiveness from God ALWAYS after any sin before they can get to confession?

So, I will pray, go to mass. Try the rosary. I do have intention to confess. I am not saying that makes anything OK. I am trying not to simplify it to "Well, I'll use this birth control so I can be sure of no more children (but feel bad doing this), then confess later." But yet it amounts to that I suppose? I wish to abstain but DH will not. But you are saying a door is not being closed to me.?I should not forget about trying to be a Catholic? (I am not thinking that, of course, but I want to have some hope here...that God will help me and prayer will help me...get where I need to be. Because, I think I can get to a state of grace. But I don't know WHEN. I simply don't. I suppose I risk dying and going to hell, as I understand it because I am not having it removed ASAP. Lots to think about.

(And I think I should go to confession for having taken communion when I should not have. I did not understand or know any of this terminology at the time, as I learned all that here. I can go to confession anyway for receiving, right? Maybe it was not a sin if I didn't know, but surely I can still go to confession?

Last edited by kc456; Feb 17, '17 at 9:15 am.
  #21  
Old Feb 17, '17, 10:12 am
nodito nodito is offline
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Default Re: IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

Quote:
Originally Posted by kc456 View Post
Very useful, thank you!

I do wonder how the church views intention to confess. What if the person dies on the way to confession? Or plans to go Saturday when it's offered but dies on Thursday? Or plans to go in 10 years and dies before then? Maybe these are big questions only God knows. People surely die all the time (suddenly) without being able to ask forgiveness at all of God, in confession or otherwise. So should a Catholic ask for forgiveness from God ALWAYS after any sin before they can get to confession?
Yes, a person should repent and ask God for forgiveness the minute they feel remorse for their sin.

God instituted the sacraments, but He is not bound by them. A person goes to hell for unrepentant mortal sin, but if a person is repentant, heading to confession, and gets hit by a bus, I am confident in God's mercy.

This is different situation from someone who feels guilty about their sin and plans on confessing on their death bed but plans to continue to commit mortal sin in the mean time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kc456
So, I will pray, go to mass. Try the rosary.
Great! The door is not closed, OP! You are now and always will be Catholic. You cannot access the sacraments in a state of unrepentant mortal sin, but perhaps God's grace is prompting you to ask these questions and reevaluate your decisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kc456
(And I think I should go to confession for having taken communion when I should not have. I did not understand or know any of this terminology at the time, as I learned all that here. I can go to confession anyway for receiving, right? Maybe it was not a sin if I didn't know, but surely I can still go to confession?
No, you cannot go to confession and receive absolution until you are contrite for all your mortal sins and plan on stopping all of them. If you did not know that you committed sacrilege by receiving communion in a state of mortal sin, then it may not have been mortally sinful for you (though still gravely wrong). Your soul can't have both the grace of God in it and also mortal sin. Light and Dark cannot exist together. So you can't go to confession for certain sins if there are other mortal sins that you don't feel contrition for and plan on ceasing.

kc456, why not just remove the IUD?
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  #22  
Old Feb 17, '17, 10:24 am
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Default Re: IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

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Originally Posted by kc456 View Post
I do wonder how the church views intention to confess. What if the person dies on the way to confession? Or plans to go Saturday when it's offered but dies on Thursday? Or plans to go in 10 years and dies before then? Maybe these are big questions only God knows. People surely die all the time (suddenly) without being able to ask forgiveness at all of God, in confession or otherwise. So should a Catholic ask for forgiveness from God ALWAYS after any sin before they can get to confession?
It is not just about contrition, but also about intent to stop sinning. Contrition includes a firm resolve to stop the sin and even the near occasion of sin. It cannot just be an intent to stop at some time in the future.

So to use your examples, if someone had committed a mortal sin, had contrition with a resolved to sin no more, and intended to go to confession, but died before they could, we can make an educated guess that God would forgive them. That also might be the case for someone who cannot make amends for say financial reason or reasons of danger. But in the case of someone that is going to confess in 10 years one has to ask why there is a delay. If they are contrite, but will not stop sinning then their contrition is not complete. There is a difference between cannot and will not.It would be like someone saying I am sorry for committing adultery, but my secretary is too attractive to stop sleeping with. Once she's too old to find attractive then I will stop and go to confession. As long as they plan to continue sinning then intent to confess in the future is immaterial. Intent to confess and feeling bad is the movement of the Holy Spirit, but the refusal to stop the sin also shows a resistance to the actual graces and placing our trust in God.

Quote:
"Well, I'll use this birth control so I can be sure of no more children (but feel bad doing this), then confess later." But yet it amounts to that I suppose? I wish to abstain but DH will not.
This shows you are feeling the Holy Spirit moving you to repentance, but it also shows that you struggle to set earthly concerns aside. Earlier you mention that you would accept children if the IUD and condom failed, but will not trust NFP as it is not 100%. So you accept that condoms and IUD do have a chance to fail and are willing to accept the risk using immoral means, but will not trust using moral means unless they are 100% guaranteed (e.g. continuous abstinence). This is what I mean by the struggle to put aside earthly concerns. It is an extreme position to say I only trust those means that guarantee (or nearly guarantee) what I desire even if they do not serve my relationship with my husband or with God.

I have 7 children between 22 and 1 (5 of them are under 10) and I will be 62 before the youngest is 18 so I understand the struggles. We are at an age where we have to ask if we can really continue to have children when they would need support past when I could work. At the same time I lived without confession or the Eucharist for 35 years (I'm a convert) and could not imagine giving that up for passing things in this life. My wife and I have been able to make significant changes in our life precisely because of the strength from the graces from the sacraments. There are things that I would have outright laughed about if you told me 10 years ago, but God walks with us as long as we will walk with him

Quote:
But you are saying a door is not being closed to me.?I should not forget about trying to be a Catholic?
Just like the prodigal son returned to his father, the Church is always waiting for us. But like the father She will watch for us, but he will not come to get us. It is up to us to find the strength to return to our Father and His Church. Even if we stumble we need to keep moving toward home. We should never just sit down on the road and accept death because it seems the road is too hard or the way too long.

Quote:
(And I think I should go to confession for having taken communion when I should not have. I did not understand or know any of this terminology at the time, as I learned all that here. I can go to confession anyway for receiving, right? Maybe it was not a sin if I didn't know, but surely I can still go to confession?
You can certainly talk to the pastor and express your sorrow, but he cannot absolve you of only some sins. It you knowingly hold back a sin in confession then absolution is invalid and there are no sacramental graces. It would have been a venial sin at best if you did not know. Unfortunately until you can move beyond the current state of things the sacraments are closed to you. You can certainly receive graces, but they would be to move you to amendment.
  #23  
Old Feb 17, '17, 10:30 am
kc456 kc456 is offline
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Default Re: IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

Can I go up to communion and get a blessing or do I sit in the pew?

I am still confused. Are you saying I cannot get absolution in confession years from now, if I continue to use an IUD through child-bearing years? That confession won't matter? That I won't be sorry enough for it to matter? I am sorry about the whole situation. I truly hate all of this. I was able to avoid sin without marriage, and now it's so hard. I just want to abstain. But maybe that's neither here nor there.

I am not giving up on anything...obviously I am here, listening, praying.

Last edited by kc456; Feb 17, '17 at 10:40 am.
  #24  
Old Feb 17, '17, 10:49 am
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Default Re: IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

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Originally Posted by kc456 View Post
Please be kind and help me get back to the church here.

I have an IUD (Skyla) and DH uses condoms in addition (We have many, many small kids all close in age, for the record). The IUD/condoms are recent. I don't think physically I could go through another pregnancy, either, or take care of the ones I have. I get really sick! DH will not abstain but I WOULD. So, I feel stuck.

I am willing to go to confession but am not ready to have the IUD removed, so should I not go to confession right now? Can I still go to mass?

I am trying to do the right thing and really feel stuck. I will NOT have this IUD forever and DO want to do what the church teaches. Can I ever get in good standing with the church? (And when it was put in I didn't know about mortal sins, just a vague sense that the church thinks it is wrong. I have done a bunch of reading since then.) And also, how does DH using condoms affect my need for confession and sin? Would confession even years from now be valid for the IUD? Because, I DO plan to get it removed at some point obviously and feel guilty and wrong with it in. Does that count for anything? What do people do when stuck like this in marriage? Marriage is two people but we are not following the church rules. Alone, I could, easily, gladly.
You cannot have an iud in your case and be in a state of grace to recoeve the Eucharist.
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  #25  
Old Feb 17, '17, 10:51 am
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Usige Usige is offline
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Default Re: IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

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Originally Posted by kc456 View Post
I did not know that. Given my situation, I cannot go to confession for having received when I should not have? (And here again, I did not know, so it might not be a sin).

I know I cannot seek absolution for the IUD issue. But I can't go to confession at all right now?? What happens if I go? I was planning on going to confession and I have not been in (a year? It might have been more). I figured the priest should know why I am not getting communion anymore.

DH thinks the birth control rule is silly so I won't get any sympathy there. So I am trying to work on my own soul.

Can I go up to communion and get a blessing or do I sit in the pew?
No you cannot confess only some sins. Confession returns us to a state of grace. As nodito so aptly put it, Light and Darkness, cannot coexist. Confessing while withholding a mortal sin does nothing but maybe make you feel better. Just like someone that is baptized and then "rebabtized" just gets wet, confession without intent to stop all sin provides no graces. It is simply a nice, if uncomfortable, conversation.

I often relate our souls to being like a clay vessel. In baptism we are fired and glazed to make the vessel water tight. That allows us to hold the water that is Grace or a share in the life of God. Through sin we weaken or shatter that vessel, but confession puts it back together. To confess only some sins would be like putting the vessel back together but leaving out some pieces. You cannot fill a vessel with water if there are holes. The same with Grace. We cannot receive sanctifying grace when we hold parts of our selves back from healing.

Another way of thinking about it is to go to the doctor and ask him to treat a scratch, but to ignore the gash on your throat. Healing one thing while ignoring a mortal wound does not save you and you would surely die even if the scratch is healed.

With regard to what to do during reception of the Eucharist? I would say stay in the pew. The whole parish receives a blessing right after the Eucharist so there really isn't a reason to turn the Eucharist into something it was never intended to be. I know that makes some people feel uncomfortable, but when I have had to do so it also reminds me that pride is also a sin that is opposed to humility and it moves me to reflect on where I place my own selfish acts before duty to God.

You would also need to ask yourself why you want a blessing. A blessing is to move us towards God and to do right in his eyes. If you want the graces to choose to follow God's will then it might have value, but if you want it merely as a salve for felling you've lost something then I would say it is not motivated by the right attitude.

The sorrow at lose of the sacraments should move us to do what is right and not become merely a feeling like we had something taken from us. Sin is all about what we chose to do, so nothing is take from us but rather something we have given away. Again the story of the prodigal son comes to mind. His father gave him his inheritance and he squandered it on frivolous pursuits. Until he came back he lived in poverty, not because his father refused to help him, but rather because he was too prideful to return to him. I often try to remember that story when I feel separated from God. Why do I chose to sleep with the swine when I simply have to return to my Father's house.
  #26  
Old Feb 17, '17, 10:57 am
kc456 kc456 is offline
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Default Re: IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

CAN I go up for a blessing? What do I do with all my little kids? Some are old enough for communion. I need to go up to help DH, I think. I have to carry the baby for HIM to get a blessing, and then there is the toddler...so I would want to go up unless it is not allowed? I am OK with no blessing but then what when I get up there? Do nothing? That is awkward. I will be carrying a child most likely.

I cannot go to confession right now, I understand. (edited some out that was not relevant)

Are you saying I cannot go to confession years from now if I have an IUD through child-bearing years? Even if I AM contrite? They would turn me away from ever getting absolution because I did not take it out immediately?
Is it black and white?
IUD through child-bearing years = eternal damnation no matter what?
Surely we cannot know all of God's plans or mysteries?

Last edited by kc456; Feb 17, '17 at 11:11 am.
  #27  
Old Feb 17, '17, 11:09 am
St Francis St Francis is offline
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Default Re: IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

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Can I go up to communion and get a blessing or do I sit in the pew?
You and your children who are too young to receive should stay in the pew. Some churches have the habit of blessing people who come up and do not receive, but this is not what they are supposed to do, esp not the Exteaordinary Ministers.

Quote:
I am still confused. Are you saying I cannot get absolution in confession years from now, if I continue to use an IUD through child-bearing years?
When you stop and resolve not to use abc any more, then you can go to Confession. Pray for an earlier resolution to your problem and don't rely on being able to after menopause, tho.


Quote:
That confession won't matter? That I won't be sorry enough for it to matter? I am sorry about the whole situation. I truly hate all of this. I was able to avoid sin without marriage, and now it's so hard. I just want to abstain. But maybe that's neither here nor there.
What is holding you back from taking out the IUD and doing your part about doing the right thing? (not a question you need to answer here, but to think about.) Also, you could start recording for NFP, since it takes a while to really get the hang of it.

Quote:
I am not giving up on anything...obviously I am here, listening, praying.
Listening and praying are great
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CS Lewis–God in the Dock, 1948



  #28  
Old Feb 17, '17, 11:12 am
nodito nodito is offline
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Default Re: IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

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Originally Posted by kc456 View Post
CAN I go up for a blessing? What do I do with all my little kids? Some are old enough for communion. I need to go up to help DH, I think. I have to carry the baby for HIM to get a blessing, and then there is the toddler...so I would want to go up unless it is not allowed? I am OK with no blessing but then what when I get up there? Do nothing? That is awkward. I will be carrying a child most likely.
If you and your husband are unable to receive communion, you may remain seated in the pew. Your children who are old enough to receive communion may go up by themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kc456

I cannot go to confession right now, I understand. (edited some out that was not relevant)

Are you saying I cannot go to confession years from now if I have an IUD through child-bearing years? Even if I AM contrite? They would turn me away from ever getting absolution? Does God, who is all powerful, pay attention to how hard I am struggling with this? Or is it black and white?
IUD through child-bearing years = eternal damnation no matter what?
You can go to confession as soon as you feel contrite and are determined to sin no more. You can go tomorrow, if you wish, provided that you're willing to stop using the IUD.
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  #29  
Old Feb 17, '17, 11:14 am
kc456 kc456 is offline
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Default Re: IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

The thing that is holding me back about removing it ASAP is because DH won't abstain and I want to prevent another pregnancy.

I feel like I could do the right thing IF not for DH. Maybe that's silly to say. We are married and I don't live on an island alone.

So IUD through child-bearing years = eternal damnation no matter what? Confession won't matter at all in the future nor bring absolution unless I remove it right away? But if I am not READY to sin no more...I don't feel ready yet. I am still thinking about all this and about when it would come out, etc.
  #30  
Old Feb 17, '17, 11:18 am
Hoosier Daddy Hoosier Daddy is offline
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Default Re: IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

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Originally Posted by kc456 View Post
The thing that is holding me back about removing it ASAP is because DH won't abstain and I want to prevent another pregnancy.

I feel like I could do the right thing IF not for DH. Maybe that's silly to say. We are married and I don't live on an island alone.
You need to learn and employ NFP
You cannot use arrificial birth control (abc) to prevent pregnancy. Neither can your husband. HOWEVER if your husband uses condoms, YOU, not your husband, may be admitted to the sacraments. The fact that you are laying blame for your sin on your husband is concerning. Please seek the guidance of a good, and holy priest.
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