Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Non-Catholic Religions
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #16  
Old Feb 17, '17, 7:20 am
PJM PJM is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: August 31, 2008
Posts: 14,140
Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic
Default Re: Is it even POSSIBLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drac16 View Post
I suppose it's possible. More specifically, it's possible that my understanding of God is wrong.
It is not only possible; it is in reality FACT

And your ARE growing slowly in right understanding.

God Bless you!

Patrick
__________________
Irish2: PJM


http://working4christtwo.wordpress.com


A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
  #17  
Old Feb 17, '17, 8:31 am
wmscott's Avatar
wmscott wmscott is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2007
Posts: 2,140
Religion: The Beautiful Catholic Faith
Default Re: Is it even POSSIBLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
AGREED, so WHY then are their so many unbelievers and so MUCH lack of Right understanding?

GBY
This is just my opinion; since the Reformation and the wedge that was driven between Christians due to man’s weakness and folly, I believe that it is Satan sowing the seeds of doubt and disorder and we fall prey to that, some more than others. If it was not true then he could care less, however since it is true he has to attack Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist and His truth within the Church.
__________________
WMSCOTT

JOHN 20:21-23
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
  #18  
Old Feb 18, '17, 5:20 am
PJM PJM is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: August 31, 2008
Posts: 14,140
Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic
Default Re: Is it even POSSIBLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmscott View Post
This is just my opinion; since the Reformation and the wedge that was driven between Christians due to man’s weakness and folly, I believe that it is Satan sowing the seeds of doubt and disorder and we fall prey to that, some more than others. If it was not true then he could care less, however since it is true he has to attack Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist and His truth within the Church.
AGREED!

Thanks and GBY

Patrick
__________________
Irish2: PJM


http://working4christtwo.wordpress.com


A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
  #19  
Old Feb 18, '17, 10:37 am
Peter J's Avatar
Peter J Peter J is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: April 7, 2008
Posts: 16,981
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Is it even POSSIBLE?

I am subscribing to this thread, because I'm curious how many of my Protestant friends (and acquaintances and enemies, etc) will respond to a "Is it even possible" thread.
  #20  
Old Feb 18, '17, 11:45 am
Gabriel of 12 Gabriel of 12 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 4, 2005
Posts: 5,451
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Is it even POSSIBLE?

Quote:
Perplexity;14477498]I do not believe it is possible, at least insofar as Catholic theology articulates it.
The Church uses the term Transubstantiation as an avenue to assist the doubting intellect to have hope.

The Church simply defines through Transubstantiation that a 'Change' has taken place.
When you add to the Church's understanding of divine revelation, you fail to understand the definition of Transubstantiation the Church uses to give hope to the failing intellect of science, that holds to that which is only visible, in time and space.

When you try and fit an Aristotle secular definition of substance and accidents to the Transubstantiation definition of the Church, that a change in substance has taken place by the divine Word of God. The secular definition fails at faith, while the Church's definition of Transubstantiation points to a substantial change occurs, and calls us to faith which opens our souls, minds, intellect to divine revelation of God's True and Substantial Presence which cannot be quantified.

Peace be with you

Last edited by Gabriel of 12; Feb 18, '17 at 12:04 pm.
  #21  
Old Feb 19, '17, 9:49 am
Gabriel of 12 Gabriel of 12 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 4, 2005
Posts: 5,451
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Is it even POSSIBLE?

Quote:
Augustine3;14479059]It's all about the individual's disposition.
For example:
[i]"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." - John 6:63
I believe you hit on something here that directly addresses the OP's question in "understanding".

What is at stake here deals with one's interpretation of the Spirit recorded in the biblical account. There exist a non-Catholic Christian misunderstanding of the biblical revelation of Spirit, that introduces a new meaning that defines Spirit relating to something symbolically or metaphorically.

When the biblical term "Spirit" is never used to understand something as symbolic or metaphorically. It is here, where a misunderstanding of the real presence in Holy Communion begins.

Please read the following scripture that defines the Spirit that compliments Jesus teaching from John 6:63 as it relates to the flesh and the spirit in Eucharist.

1Cor.1:
22
For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23
but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
.
2Cor.
3
I came to you in weakness* and fear and much trembling,
4
and my message and my proclamation were not with persuasive (words of) wisdom,* but with a demonstration of spirit and power,
5
so that your faith might rest not on human wisdom but on the power of God.
9
But as it is written:

“What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard,

and what has not entered the human heart,

what God has prepared for those who love him,”
10
this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.

For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God.
11
Among human beings, who knows what pertains to a person except the spirit of the person that is within? Similarly, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God. 12
We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God.
13
And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms.*
14
Now the natural person* does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually. 15
The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment* by anyone. 16
For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Quote:
Ah it's the spirit that is profitable. The flesh counts for nothing. Jesus must have meant to eat his flesh metaphorically (of course I'm a Catholic, I don't share this view!).
You raised a good point

Peace be with you
  #22  
Old Feb 20, '17, 6:28 am
PJM PJM is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: August 31, 2008
Posts: 14,140
Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic
Default Re: Is it even POSSIBLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel of 12 View Post
I believe you hit on something here that directly addresses the OP's question in "understanding".

What is at stake here deals with one's interpretation of the Spirit recorded in the biblical account. There exist a non-Catholic Christian misunderstanding of the biblical revelation of Spirit, that introduces a new meaning that defines Spirit relating to something symbolically or metaphorically.

When the biblical term "Spirit" is never used to understand something as symbolic or metaphorically. It is here, where a misunderstanding of the real presence in Holy Communion begins.
Please permit me [the OP] to interject a thought here

I'm keenly aware of the Protestant position of denial based on John 6: 63 [or 64] depending on the bible version quoted:

From the RSV:
John.6 Verses 63 to 64
It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.

WHAT THIS is actually teaching is John 4: 23-24
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." ... in other WORDS, the Spirit IS GOD; Is Jesus both in his human nature and in His Divine Nature

Quote:
Please read the following scripture that defines the Spirit that compliments Jesus teaching from John 6:63 as it relates to the flesh and the spirit in Eucharist.

1Cor.1:
22
For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23
but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
.
2Cor.
3
I came to you in weakness* and fear and much trembling,
4
and my message and my proclamation were not with persuasive (words of) wisdom,* but with a demonstration of spirit and power,
5
so that your faith might rest not on human wisdom but on the power of God.
9
But as it is written:

“What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard,

and what has not entered the human heart,

what God has prepared for those who love him,”
10
this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.

For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God.
11
Among human beings, who knows what pertains to a person except the spirit of the person that is within? Similarly, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God. 12
We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God.
13
And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms.*
14
Now the natural person* does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually. 15
The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment* by anyone. 16
For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

You raised a good point

Peace be with you
THANKS so much!

Patrick
__________________
Irish2: PJM


http://working4christtwo.wordpress.com


A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
  #23  
Old Feb 24, '17, 9:26 pm
Mammoths Mammoths is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2015
Posts: 386
Religion: under construction ("bible only" is out) update: catholic?
Default Re: Is it even POSSIBLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
AGREED, so WHY then are their so many unbelievers and so MUCH lack of Right understanding?

GBY
John 6 is the chapter of the Bible that makes the most compelling case against the real presence in my mind. I state that subjectively not authoritatively. I can't get over, "the flesh profits nothing, it is the spirit that gives life. The Words that I speak to you they are spirit and life." "This is the work of God that you believe in Him who sent me." It seems like Jesus is doing what he sometimes did by confusing the crowd so he could explain to the disciples. On this case peter responds as though he gets the point that Jesus is talking about himself as the WORD of life. It is his message that gives life. The manna in the wilderness was physical food but the words of Jesus, his substance, is spiritual food.

Anyway, from a bible only point of view, john 6 is not so clearly a proof of the real presence doctrine. It's not a contradiction, it's just that the real presence is the less obvious interpretation and not necessary to explain the text.
__________________
⚠️ posts from this member may be corrupted by evangelicalism and not fully reflect the churches teachings. Please take exception with extreme prejudice. ⚠️ (the more you correct me the more I learn) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...26&version=DRA
  #24  
Old Feb 26, '17, 8:55 am
PJM PJM is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: August 31, 2008
Posts: 14,140
Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic
Default Re: Is it even POSSIBLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mammoths View Post
John 6 is the chapter of the Bible that makes the most compelling case against the real presence in my mind. I state that subjectively not authoritatively. I can't get over, "the flesh profits nothing, it is the spirit that gives life. The Words that I speak to you they are spirit and life." "This is the work of God that you believe in Him who sent me." It seems like Jesus is doing what he sometimes did by confusing the crowd so he could explain to the disciples. On this case peter responds as though he gets the point that Jesus is talking about himself as the WORD of life. It is his message that gives life. The manna in the wilderness was physical food but the words of Jesus, his substance, is spiritual food.

Anyway, from a bible only point of view, john 6 is not so clearly a proof of the real presence doctrine. It's not a contradiction, it's just that the real presence is the less obvious interpretation and not necessary to explain the text.
PLEASE KNOW THAT DUE TO THE GREAT IMPORTANCE OF THIS POST-REPLY [I'M THE OP], I AM DRAFTING A DETAILED IN DEPTH RESPONSE TO IT.

PLEASE BE LOOKING FOR IT ASAP

God Bless you,

Patrick
__________________
Irish2: PJM


http://working4christtwo.wordpress.com


A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
  #25  
Old Feb 26, '17, 4:11 pm
wmscott's Avatar
wmscott wmscott is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2007
Posts: 2,140
Religion: The Beautiful Catholic Faith
Default Re: Is it even POSSIBLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
PLEASE KNOW THAT DUE TO THE GREAT IMPORTANCE OF THIS POST-REPLY [I'M THE OP], I AM DRAFTING A DETAILED IN DEPTH RESPONSE TO IT.

PLEASE BE LOOKING FOR IT ASAP

God Bless you,

Patrick
Looking forward to it

I know the answer and know that it really needs to details response that I know you are preparing. I dont want to steal your thunder
__________________
WMSCOTT

JOHN 20:21-23
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
  #26  
Old Feb 26, '17, 4:34 pm
PJM PJM is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: August 31, 2008
Posts: 14,140
Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic
Default Re: Is it even POSSIBLE?

[quote=Mammoths;14501983]

Quote:
Mammoths: POST #23 RE: Is it even possible

“John 6 is the chapter of the Bible that makes the most compelling case against the real presence in my mind. I state that subjectively not authoritatively. I can't get over, "the flesh profits nothing, it is the spirit that gives life. The Words that I speak to you they are spirit and life." "This is the work of God that you believe in Him who sent me." It seems like Jesus is doing what he sometimes did by confusing the crowd so he could explain to the disciples. On this case peter responds as though he gets the point that Jesus is talking about himself as the WORD of life. It is his message that gives life. The manna in the wilderness was physical food but the words of Jesus, his substance, is spiritual food.

Anyway, from a bible only point of view, john 6 is not so clearly a proof of the real presence doctrine.
__________________
⚠️ posts from this member may be corrupted by evangelicalism and not fully reflect the church’s teachings. Please take exception with extreme prejudice. ⚠️ (the more you correct me the more I learn) “
My DEAR friend in Christ,
You have well-expressed 1 of the 2 most common [mis]understandings of thee most important of all Catholic Dogma’s: The REAL Presence. …. Because of the significance of this Dogma, on which rest the entire TRUTH of Catholicism & Christianity, a detailed response is warranted.

Because the FORUM limits space; the reply will take more than 1 POST

Let’s begin with a prayer:

COME Holy Spirit; have mercy upon us and open our eyes, hearts, minds & understanding; which are critically needed for right comprehension of YOUR often Profound, Mysterious, Miraculous Truths.

Remove our human prejudices, & make possible your insights to YOUR truths, which only YOU can do.

Permit this to be a teaching & a Learning moment by YOUR Grace.
In Jesus Name we pray: AMEN


Several questions loom:

[1] Are YOU aware of the one INFALLIBLE RULE FOR RIGHT-UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE? Which BTW is a Catholic “birthed”; God Inspired book? 2 Tim 3:16-17
The OT was assembled by Catholics, & the entire NT was AUTHORED by and FOR Catholics, to whom it was exclusively addressed. The Reformation would not take place for more than a 1,000 YEARS after the bibles Canon[list of Inspired books affirmed in the EARLY 4th Century] was set. Protestantism was not anticipated by the NT Catholic Authors

THE INFALLIBLE RULE
Never Ever; can, may or DOES, One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to Invalidate, make void or override another Verse, passage or teaching: Were this even the slightest possibility; [it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or learn Christ Faith”

[2] Why does the Holy Spirit block RIGHT understanding to some?

Eph.11: “13-14 “In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

Later I will share the Haydock Catholic Commentary & Matthew Henry’s Protestant Commentary of John 6: verses 63-65 as impartial evidence of all that I share here

It is the insistence on human logic having an assumed & usurped authority to self-interpret the bible [Thanks to ML], that has led to the irrefutable evidence of this grave and dominate error.

TRUTH can be nothing other than singular per defined issue such as we are discussing today: John 6: verses 63-65.

Pope Benedict XVI in his inaugural address taught this very logical teaching on TRUTH:
“There cannot be your truth and my truth or there would be no truth.

The HS imposed penalty for Denial of this Eucharistic reality is attested to by the thousands of DIFFERINGS Protestant Churches [EACH being identified by its OWN freely chosen set of Faith beliefs; yet none of them, but only the RCC can be proven to have “it.”

Protestant ignorance is self-inflicted; prompted by UNBELIEF, and Holy Spirit imposed, for those who choose to ignore the evidence that He, GOD makes possible for right understanding.

[2] UNDERSTANDING:
Isaiah 55:8 -9 for my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.

1Kgs.4: 29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding beyond measure, and largeness of mind like the sand on the seashore

Luke.24: 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures

1John.5: 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Eph.4: 18 they are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart [MEANS insistence that teachings be LOGICAL]

2nd Peter 1:19-21 “And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

What the above passages teaches

Right understanding of the bible is a gift of the HS. Believers are granted it; unbelievers are usually denied it. Doubters can ask for it.

END OF PT 1 OF 3
__________________
Irish2: PJM


http://working4christtwo.wordpress.com


A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
  #27  
Old Feb 26, '17, 5:06 pm
PJM PJM is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: August 31, 2008
Posts: 14,140
Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic
Default Re: Is it even POSSIBLE?

START OF PT 2 OF 3
Quote:
Mammoths: POST #23 RE: Is it even possible
[3] Can GOD not do this?

Can WE agree that GOD is omnipotent?

God CAN DO “ANY” good-thing. IF, as the RCC teaches, Jesus IS Truly, Really & Substantially [entirely] Present in Catholic Holy Communion; then THIS reality would be; & IS, the greatest possible “Good.” God in Person in our Midst! WOW!

It then becomes my task to make evident the truths of this reality, which I will do biblically and materially
.

OUR CATECHISM
1324 The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life." "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch." [“sacrifice.”]


What this is saying in the Eucharist is a “RE-Presentation”; NOT a mere representation[/color][/b]n. It is the now GLORIED Body of Jesus Jn.20:19-23, that is made present in a reenactment of the one Original sacrifice of Christ, time & time again forever.

[4] It is necessary to point out that it is NOT John 6 alone that provides the necessary for you, biblical evidence. FIVE different Bible authors share their testimony of this REALITY.

Mt.26: 26-28
Mk. 14: 21-24
LK. 22: 19-21
John 6: 47-58
Paul: 1st Cor. 11: 23-30


So let’s look at a few passages from John 6 & Paul to see what this one passage [John 6:63 /64] which is presumed to have the Power & Authority to override ALL of the above

John 6: 63-65 John.6: 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

John.6: 47 - 58
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

THIS sin is denial of GOD’S TRUTH

54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will CONDITIONALLY] raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. [AND THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT DOES TAKE PLACE IN CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION]

65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

John.6: 67 to 69 “Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?"
Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."

DID the Early Church believe & Practice this? YES!

Acts 2: 42 and they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread [The Eucharist] and the prayers

Paul” 1st Cor 11: 23-30
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.

NOTE WERE THIS JUST ORDINARY” BREAD & WINE, THEIR COULD BE NO SELF CONDEMNING OF JESUS CHRIST IN PERSON

30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. [Means: self-condemned themselves to Eternal Hell unless they repent & convert]

HOW could Jesus /GOD or the Catholic NT authors have been MORE specific; more precise in the language they; GUIDED by the HS, choose to use?

And despite ALL of these other teaching proofs we are to presume are made null & void based on One single passage? Verse 63; how LOGICAL is that?

[5] John.6: 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. [See the commentaries]

So if this passage is indeed misunderstood [and it is]; then How & WHY is that so?

TWO issues are the answer
1. Human pride [it’s not logical] verses 52 & 63
2. Right understanding HAS to be granted by the HS who is greatly influenced by one’s humility


Go back and read verse 52 [above]. The unbelievers were of the mind that Jesus was speaking of his MORTAL-Flesh: “"How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

BUT what Jesus was anticipating was His GLORIED & Risen body, Blood, Soul & Divinity. And ALL of its enhancements and expanded capabilities. Clearly what is implied here is the very Son of God which can ONLY be understood [verse 65] If & WHEN God makes such understanding possible.

END OF PT 2 OF 3
__________________
Irish2: PJM


http://working4christtwo.wordpress.com


A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
  #28  
Old Feb 26, '17, 5:23 pm
PJM PJM is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: August 31, 2008
Posts: 14,140
Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic
Default Re: Is it even POSSIBLE?

START OF PT 3 OF 3 REPLY 2 Mammoths

[6] MATERIAL EVIDENCE

Earlier I promised 2 forms of evidence. Above & below is the biblical evidence
The other form is ALSO directly from God in the form of Eucharistic Miracles, which can only happen through direct Godly intervention. God permits these for two reasons:

1. 1Tim.2: 3 to 5 “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2. To provide the obstinate minds & hearts scientifically proven evidence so that it is self-damming

Please check out these sites.

Heb.11: 1 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”

[1] http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

[2] https://churchpop.com/2015/06/28/5-e...with-pictures/

[3] http://www.churchmilitant.com/news/a...f-jesus-christ


[6] THE MATERIAL EVIDENCE

Earlier I promised 2 forms of evidence. Above & below is the biblical evidence
The other form is ALSO directly from God in the form of Eucharistic Miracles, which can only happen through direct Godly intervention. God permits these for two reasons:


1. 1Tim.2: 3 to 5 “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2. To provide the obstinate minds & hearts illogical, impartial scientifically proven evidence & PROOF so that the obstinate are damming themselves, they ALONE are to blame.

Please check out these sites.

Heb.11: 1 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”

Rom. 5: 2 “By whom also we have access through FAITH into His Grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the HOPE of the glory of the sons of God

[1] http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

[2] https://churchpop.com/2015/06/28/5-e...with-pictures/

[3] http://www.churchmilitant.com/news/a...f-jesus-christ


Haydock’s Catholic commentary on John 6:63-64
http://haydock1859.tripod.com/

Ver. 64. The flesh profiteth nothing. Dead flesh, separated from the spirit, in the gross manner they supposed they were to eat his flesh, would profit nothing. Neither doth man's flesh, that is to say, man's natural and carnal apprehension, (which refuses to be subject to the spirit, and words of Christ) profit anything. But it would be the height of blasphemy, to say the living flesh of Christ (which we receive in the blessed sacrament, with his spirit, that is, with his soul and divinity) profiteth nothing. For if Christ's flesh had profited us nothing, he would never have taken flesh for us, nor died in the flesh for us. --- Are spirit and life. The flesh[4] of itself profiteth nothing, not even the flesh of our Saviour Christ, were it not united to the divine person of Christ. But we must take care how we understand these words spoken by our Saviour:

When I promise you life if you eat my flesh, I do not wish you to understand this of that gross and carnal manner, of cutting my members in pieces: such ideas are far from my mind: the flesh profiteth nothing. In the Scriptures, the word flesh is often put for the carnal manner of understanding anything. If you wish to enter into the spirit of my words, raise your hearts to a more elevated and spiritual way of understanding them

Matthew Henry’s Protestant Commentary
http://www.biblestudytools.com/comme...enry-complete/

Verses 60–71
We have here an account of the effects of Christ’s discourse. Some were offended and others edified by it; some driven from him and others brought nearer to him.


[2.] He gives them a general key to this and all such parabolical discourses, teaching them that they are to be understood spiritually, and not after a corporal and carnal manner: It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing, John 6:63. As it is in the natural body, the animal spirits quicken and enliven it, and without these the most nourishing food would profit nothing (what would the body be the better for bread, if it were not quickened and animated by the spirit), so it is with the soul. First, ..... Even the flesh of Christ, the sacrifice for sin, will avail us nothing unless the blessed Spirit quicken our souls thereby, and enforce the powerful influences of his death upon us, till we by his grace are planted together in the likeness of it. Secondly, The doctrine of eating Christ’s flesh and drinking his blood, if it be understood literally, profits nothing, but rather leads us into mistakes and prejudices; but the spiritual sense or meaning of it quickens the soul, makes it alive and lively; for so it follows: .... Thirdly, The flesh profits nothing—those that are in the flesh (so some understand it), that are under the power of a carnal mind, profit not by Christ’s discourses; but the Spirit quickeneth—those that have the Spirit, that are spiritual, are quickened and enlivened by them; for they are received ad modum recipientis—so as to correspond with the state of the receiver’s mind. They found fault with Christ’s sayings, whereas the fault was in themselves; it is only to sensual minds that spiritual things are senseless and sapless, spiritual minds relish them; see 1 Cor. 2:14, 15.


SHOULD ANYONE WISH TO RECEIVE MY ENTIRE REPLY; PLEASE SEND ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE REQUEST.
GBY
__________________
Irish2: PJM


http://working4christtwo.wordpress.com


A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
  #29  
Old Feb 26, '17, 5:35 pm
Mammoths Mammoths is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2015
Posts: 386
Religion: under construction ("bible only" is out) update: catholic?
Default Re: Is it even POSSIBLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
PLEASE KNOW THAT DUE TO THE GREAT IMPORTANCE OF THIS POST-REPLY [I'M THE OP], I AM DRAFTING A DETAILED IN DEPTH RESPONSE TO IT.

PLEASE BE LOOKING FOR IT ASAP

God Bless you,

Patrick
I am looking forward to it because this issue is troubling me a lot. Hopefully you can help me settle it.
__________________
⚠️ posts from this member may be corrupted by evangelicalism and not fully reflect the churches teachings. Please take exception with extreme prejudice. ⚠️ (the more you correct me the more I learn) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...26&version=DRA
  #30  
Old Feb 26, '17, 5:36 pm
Mammoths Mammoths is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2015
Posts: 386
Religion: under construction ("bible only" is out) update: catholic?
Default Re: Is it even POSSIBLE?

Reeding...
__________________
⚠️ posts from this member may be corrupted by evangelicalism and not fully reflect the churches teachings. Please take exception with extreme prejudice. ⚠️ (the more you correct me the more I learn) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...26&version=DRA
Closed Thread

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Non-Catholic Religions

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
6597CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: tawny
6139Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
5164Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
4627Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: neweggs
4289Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
4055OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: Fischli
3290For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: GLam8833
3261Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Herculees
2823Let's Empty Purgatory 2
Last by: njlisa
2448SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 1:34 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.