Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > The Water Cooler > Back Fence
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #46  
Old Jul 17, '17, 11:17 pm
Rosebud77 Rosebud77 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2013
Posts: 9,750
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Lady in my diocese dresses up as a nun (???)

For this compassion, thank you

This all reminds me indelibly of something that happened here in Ireland some years ago

A lady dressed as a nun was visiting various places, with a large statue of Mary that she claimed cured cancer .

One priest ejected her from Mass.

At the time she was ill; flu I think.

A taxi driver saw this and drove her, with the statue, to a friend who had a bed and breakfast place. The friend took her in, put her to bed and cared for her with no charge for some weeks.

Who then was acting as Christ?

For it reminds me also of a certain parable Jesus left with us of helping the so-called unacceptable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Ruggero View Post
When one is dealing with the delusional, it is just very very sad.
  #47  
Old Jul 17, '17, 11:36 pm
Rosebud77 Rosebud77 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2013
Posts: 9,750
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Lady in my diocese dresses up as a nun (???)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrDavid96 View Post
No need to say anything to the diocese.

Religious habit is, for the most part, nothing more than a variation of secular clothing from times past.

We might sometimes find it odd, but there's no law (civil or church) against people wearing outdated clothing.

Now, if she would be impersonating a nun, that's a different matter. It's even criminal in at least 1 state that I know of. It can be a crime (delict) under Church law, depending on how far one goes in impersonating.

HOWEVER, you said that she said "I'm not a nun" so there's no way she can be accused of impersonating.

Please: do not "report" her to the diocese. That would be unfair and uncharitable. Indeed, you might even incur upon yourself the penalty associated with making a false accusation to an ecclesiastical authority.
Thank you
  #48  
Old Jul 18, '17, 12:45 am
Don Ruggero Don Ruggero is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 27, 2015
Posts: 4,582
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Lady in my diocese dresses up as a nun (???)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie View Post
In related news: I heard on the radio today that the Sisters of Charity have obtained a legal copyright of their saris. Apparently people were copying them for "unscrupulous and unfair usage."

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...te-sari-48242/
Well, unfortunately, it can be a matter of necessity to act thus.

I won't say it was a regular occurrence but neither was it infrequent that our diocesan newsletter, that went to the priests and religious houses in the diocese, would include notification of instances regarding persons and their behaviour that one needed to be warned about and one should be on the alert about.
  #49  
Old Jul 18, '17, 2:56 am
Don Ruggero Don Ruggero is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 27, 2015
Posts: 4,582
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Lady in my diocese dresses up as a nun (???)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrDavid96 View Post
And that's even assuming that anyone at the chancery is going to give this a second thought; which I highly doubt---not unless the complaint comes from the pastor or other cleric, or some actual member of consecrated life.
Really, Father? In the United States of America, you are in a diocese where queries from people about the behaviour of a person that caused them concern are ignored by your diocesan curia -- unless the person raising the concern is a parish priest, other cleric, or member of consecrated life?

That is very far from my experiences when, as a member of the curia of my diocese, I visited chanceries in the United States.
  • I found staffing levels that were much higher than what we have, by and large, in Europe, with a greater efficiency for handling queries from a variety of sources.
  • I found staff that were very conscientious when it came especially to concerns about behaviours displayed in interpersonal interactions, above all with certain segments of the population on the one hand...but certainly not limited to those population segments deemed vulnerable. And the focus extended to people, events and places beyond the diocese's strict purview under the rubric of "an abundance of caution."
  • Indeed, I found an almost hyper-vigilance for issues of concern raised by anyone, Catholic or not, that even tangentially touched upon the safe environment protocols.
  • I was surprised, for example, how extensive it was for the American chanceries to have one or more civil lawyers on full-time staff to vet "situations of potential concern," as they termed them, and then increase protocols to achieve what they called liability reduction or risk management
When I combine all of that with the fact that American permanent deacons are precluded from wearing the cassock and extremely limited in the use of the clerical collar, in spite of being ordained clerics, I find it nothing short of remarkable that a lay person could freely go about in the habit of a Religious while on property for which the diocese has jurisdiction.

It is all the more remarkable since, in Europe, we have confraternities which have distinctive garb -- a practice that the hierarchy of the United States does not replicate or find allowable for importation to their jurisdictions.

Quote:
Imagine the "worst case scenario" ....
I have no interest in imagining any scenario that can be created in this or that mind relative to this situation. It is, frankly, an exercise that is a waste of time.

Across the decades, I have had to deal with a good many such situations that either landed in my lap or were handed to me by someone wearing a pectoral cross and ring with the directive "Resolve this." As I have said, I have helped with tertiaries, consecrated virgins, and others when it came to issues of appropriate attire for their station But I have never encountered a person that was not in consecrated life who was wearing a Religious habit by coincidence. It did not just happen that their attire was a Religious habit; the person, in fact, set out to achieve precisely that effect.

In any event, this matter is quite basic. If someone -- Catholic or non-Catholic -- has a concern about a person who is not a Religious but who is wearing a Religious habit whilst on Catholic property, they may refer that concern to an official of the diocese and the official of the diocese can straight-forwardly address the concern, as is seen fit by the diocesan curia.

Quote:
Indeed, you might even incur upon yourself the penalty associated with making a false accusation to an ecclesiastical authority.
Finally, let us be very clear on this point...because this is particularly...disturbing. A lay person is not going to incur a penalty for making a false accusation when they are querying the legitimacy of actually questionable behaviour.

Such an assertion of punitive action, which has an inherently chilling effect on raising points of concern, in the era when the laity -- when anyone -- is admonished to give voice to a concern or even suspicion about behaviour that is improper or simply appears improper is simply unconscionable and intolerable. Far from wanting to discourage people from making known any concerns to diocesan officials, one wants to encourage people to make known their concerns.

The penalty exists, as one example, to redress falsely denouncing -- and thereby defaming -- a cleric, with malice and by a lodged allegation, of mis-allocating parish funds -- the civil crime of embezzlement.

That does not mean a person cannot voice concerns to or ask for clarification from diocesan officials about parish financial matters and how they are being handled or perceived to be mishandled. It does not preclude presenting questions to the chancery about the appropriateness of how a bequest to the parish was actually disbursed. Or if canon law or particular law has been transgressed by actions taken -- or otherwise query authorities, beyond the parish priest, about the handling of financial matters by the parish priest that are causing legitimate concern or even just uncertainty.

Saying to the Episcopal Vicar for Religious and those in consecrated life "There is a woman, who has admitted she is not a Sister, who wears the Religious habit of a Franciscan female Religious and does so in various sites, both ecclesiastical and secular; this is not understandable to me and I am advising competent diocesan authority of this behaviour" is not going to incur a penalty.

Last edited by Don Ruggero; Jul 18, '17 at 3:08 am.
  #50  
Old Jul 18, '17, 3:03 am
Don Ruggero Don Ruggero is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 27, 2015
Posts: 4,582
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Lady in my diocese dresses up as a nun (???)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IWantGod View Post
Can i dress up as the Pope?
I would not recommend it in my part of the vineyard. It would not be well received...even if you answered the question "Are you the Pope?" by stating you are not.

As it happens, I was drawn to answer your post because I have a white cassock in the back of my closet. It is from when I had fidei donum assignments to places that had the tropical dispensation, in a different chapter of my life. No one there, however, thought I was the Pope since the white cassock was so widely used by the clergy in those places. I would have stood out if I was not in white.

I visited a part of the United States that was every bit as hot and humid as other places I had been but the American bishops had not sought the concession, so it would not have been appropriate to use that cassock in their jurisdiction

The Americans did have the advantage of having rather powerful air conditioning on their part -- and I used the standard cassock much less than I would have in a cooler climate.
  #51  
Old Jul 18, '17, 3:38 am
Rosebud77 Rosebud77 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2013
Posts: 9,750
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Lady in my diocese dresses up as a nun (???)

In any event, this matter is quite basic. If someone -- Catholic or non-Catholic -- has a concern about a person who is not a Religious but who is wearing a Religious habit whilst on Catholic property, they may refer that concern to an official of the diocese and the official of the diocese can straight-forwardly address the concern, as is seen fit by the


Saying to the Episcopal Vicar for Religious and those in consecrated life "There is a woman, who has admitted she is not a Sister, who wears the Religious habit of a Franciscan female Religious and does so in various sites, both ecclesiastical and secular; this is not understandable to me and I am advising competent diocesan authority of this behaviour" is not going to incur a penalty.[/quote]

Has that been established? An actual Franciscan habit?

Sounds very heavy handed though.
  #52  
Old Jul 18, '17, 3:50 am
Don Ruggero Don Ruggero is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 27, 2015
Posts: 4,582
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Lady in my diocese dresses up as a nun (???)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosebud77 View Post
In any event, this matter is quite basic. If someone -- Catholic or non-Catholic -- has a concern about a person who is not a Religious but who is wearing a Religious habit whilst on Catholic property, they may refer that concern to an official of the diocese and the official of the diocese can straight-forwardly address the concern, as is seen fit by the


Saying to the Episcopal Vicar for Religious and those in consecrated life "There is a woman, who has admitted she is not a Sister, who wears the Religious habit of a Franciscan female Religious and does so in various sites, both ecclesiastical and secular; this is not understandable to me and I am advising competent diocesan authority of this behaviour" is not going to incur a penalty.
Quote:
Has that been established? An actual Franciscan habit?

Sounds very heavy handed though.
Have you read the original post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by victrolatim View Post
/.../ I always assumed she was a nun (she dresses exactly like a Franciscan nun with the veil and everything). I happened to run into the lady at a grocery store and automatically said "Good morning, Sister". She laughed and said "Oh, I'm not a nun honey!". /.../

She doesn't just wear a veil, she literally is wearing a black veil with a brown habit and a pectoral cross with a rosary at her side with the cord around the waist. /.../
  #53  
Old Jul 18, '17, 4:24 am
Rosebud77 Rosebud77 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2013
Posts: 9,750
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Lady in my diocese dresses up as a nun (???)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Ruggero View Post
Have you read the original post?
Yes, Father, of course I read the OP.

I meant can they identify exactly which Franciscan Order's habit she is wearing? A brown habit is not exact enough surely? How does the OP define a habit, as a secular person also?

The idea of doing what you advise? These days any woman wearing a suit etc could be eg a Mercy Sister. Is this going to be applied there also?

The last Franciscan nun I met was wearing a dowdy brown quilted jacket, a nondescript blouse and no veil of any kind. Are any of the Franciscans there wearing the habit? I know our Poor Clares do but they are enclosed.

I fear that on this we will just have to agree to differ respectfully, Father. We are much more relaxed than this in rural Ireland thankfully
  #54  
Old Jul 18, '17, 5:04 am
pnewton's Avatar
pnewton pnewton is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 33,880
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Lady in my diocese dresses up as a nun (???)

I am of too minds on this one, so I have not jumped in. The behavior is so far from the norm, the only reason I can see it is deception or mental illness. Adults just don't play dress up and go out in public. Maybe on rare occasion, like an actor, an convention, or some other setting where such dress up is narrowly accepted as temporarily normal.

Okay, here is my analogy: talking loud in Church to the priest during the homily. We have a lady with Down's Syndrome that does this from time to time. The reaction of the priest is to smile and respond. The reaction of her mother is to whisper to her to remind her she is not to do that. The reaction of everyone is to just accept the small disturbance as part of life.

This lady who dresses as a nun might have some from whom advice would be appropriate. Everyone else should just learn to tolerate her, as we should all.

I guess I would be more concerned if she was perfectly normal in all other respects. I would keep my eyes open to see if she sought charity, donations or some other consideration as if she was a nun. We do have wolves among us, though normally they are more careful to blend in. I understand Don R.'s concern, as well as the need for charity. For me, I do not see a conflict because I believe in the wisdom of dealing with people like this with a greater subtly. Get closer, be observant, and let them think they have succeeded in fooling you. If you are wrong, then no harm is done. If you are right, then they will eventually take some action to confirm this and you can deal with them in a more concrete way.
__________________
"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus

Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
  #55  
Old Jul 18, '17, 5:51 am
Rosebud77 Rosebud77 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2013
Posts: 9,750
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Lady in my diocese dresses up as a nun (???)

She could be a third order type who do wear full habit yet are not recognised RC? We have had some here on CAF who are such. Valid in their eyes and as individuals RC.

Why assume she is mentally unwell? Or deceiving?

Taize monks wear the habit; autocephalous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton View Post
I am of too minds on this one, so I have not jumped in. The behavior is so far from the norm, the only reason I can see it is deception or mental illness. Adults just don't play dress up and go out in public. Maybe on rare occasion, like an actor, an convention, or some other setting where such dress up is narrowly accepted as temporarily normal.

Okay, here is my analogy: talking loud in Church to the priest during the homily. We have a lady with Down's Syndrome that does this from time to time. The reaction of the priest is to smile and respond. The reaction of her mother is to whisper to her to remind her she is not to do that. The reaction of everyone is to just accept the small disturbance as part of life.

This lady who dresses as a nun might have some from whom advice would be appropriate. Everyone else should just learn to tolerate her, as we should all.

I guess I would be more concerned if she was perfectly normal in all other respects. I would keep my eyes open to see if she sought charity, donations or some other consideration as if she was a nun. We do have wolves among us, though normally they are more careful to blend in. I understand Don R.'s concern, as well as the need for charity. For me, I do not see a conflict because I believe in the wisdom of dealing with people like this with a greater subtly. Get closer, be observant, and let them think they have succeeded in fooling you. If you are wrong, then no harm is done. If you are right, then they will eventually take some action to confirm this and you can deal with them in a more concrete way.
  #56  
Old Jul 18, '17, 6:32 am
CB Catholic's Avatar
CB Catholic CB Catholic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2007
Posts: 6,145
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Lady in my diocese dresses up as a nun (???)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosebud77 View Post
In any event, this matter is quite basic. If someone -- Catholic or non-Catholic -- has a concern about a person who is not a Religious but who is wearing a Religious habit whilst on Catholic property, they may refer that concern to an official of the diocese and the official of the diocese can straight-forwardly address the concern, as is seen fit by the


Saying to the Episcopal Vicar for Religious and those in consecrated life "There is a woman, who has admitted she is not a Sister, who wears the Religious habit of a Franciscan female Religious and does so in various sites, both ecclesiastical and secular; this is not understandable to me and I am advising competent diocesan authority of this behaviour" is not going to incur a penalty.
Has that been established? An actual Franciscan habit?

Sounds very heavy handed though.[/quote]

Hard sometimes to judge a Franciscan by the habit. I am thinking of an order of Franciscan sisters in my area who wear a gray nondescript habit with a cord around the waist. Then there is the order of Father Groschel and Apostoli , whose habits are gray; the ones around here wear the brown, but the one thing in common is they all wear sandals. (Although I've heard there are some who do not, but I've never seen it).
__________________
Carolyn
Closed Thread

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > The Water Cooler > Back Fence

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
6631CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: tawny
6228Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
5195Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
4631Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4314Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
4055OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: Fischli
3293For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: GLam8833
3261Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Herculees
2828Let's Empty Purgatory 2
Last by: Tis Bearself
2449SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 5:43 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.