Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Catholic Living > Family Life > Parenting
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #121  
Old Jul 16, '17, 12:04 pm
kptrs's Avatar
kptrs kptrs is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2015
Posts: 751
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The line between verbal abuse and discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by gardenswithkids View Post
There is something between making criminal accusations against parents and ignoring the entire situation.

Just as some of here don't think phrases like "stupid" or even "not smart" should ever be directed at children, I think people should generally avoid directing phrases like "verbal abuse" against parents.

Let's be reasonable instead of throwing criminal accusations against any parent who yells for any reason. In order for humanity to survive, parents need to have the next generation. But parenting at times is difficult, and people are often today deciding to have fewer children or not have any children at all. While some worry about overpopulation, many Western societies face birth rates that are below the replacement level.

While I don't think parents should verbally berate their children, I think they shouldn't do that because:
1) it's not nice
and
2) it's not effective discipline
and
3) we want children to grown into emotionally healthy, productive adults
and lastly,
4) it's not good or healthy for the parents either (because sin also has a negative effect on the sinner.)

While I find the phrase "verbal abuse" generally unhelpful, I think what is helpful is for parents to learn effective parenting and discipline techniques. Effective discipline involves the parent being self-disciplined. Things like regular bedtimes, naps, snacks and meal times can help prevent tired, hungry children (and their parents) from melting down. (Adequate exercise and regular outside playtime helps too. A healthy lifestyle requires that the parent have the self-discipline to maintain a healthy routine while adjusting to the various changes and challenges that come in life. Flipping out and yelling at a child and calling the child names is not an indication that the parent has self-discipline. Such poor self-discipline from a parent is likely to result in a child who is also poorly self-disciplined, and thus the cycle continues...tired, hungry child with pent-up energy, frustrated parent who is more prone to go off the deep end....Shampoo, rinse, repeat. The cycle continues. Just telling the parent not to yell at their children doesn't really resolve the issues that often makes parents want to yell at their children.

The goal of parental discipline is not to have to continue disciplining the child ad infinitum, but to raise someone who eventually becomes a functional adult. People forget that parenting is generally not about raising children--it's about raising the next generation of adults.
A rose by any other word would smell as sweet?

Physical abuse is criminal behavior. Emotional abuse is not. But they're both abuse.

I'm sure I'm opening a can of worms by using this analogy, but killing a person who is born is criminal behavior. Killing a child in the womb is not. Both acts are killing and take a human life.

Also, verbal and emotional abuse are reportable. Teachers, catechists, and anyone who works with children are trained to recognize and intervene if they believe a child under their care is being verbally or emotionally abused at home, same as with physical abuse. Such intervention for verbal abuse is implemented in a way that is not the "overreaction" most people fear. The child won't be taken away from their parents, no one will be taken to court or go to jail. They may just be given access to resources such as counseling or anger management programs. It would have been great if someone would have done this for me as a kid. But it's a recent development.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old Jul 16, '17, 12:27 pm
Truth_Faith13's Avatar
Truth_Faith13 Truth_Faith13 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2013
Posts: 1,045
Religion: Christian (Seeking: Catholic or LDS)
Default Re: The line between verbal abuse and discipline

I don't think social services (our CPS) really care much for terms used...they go on evidence, the situation and what the child says. They will remove a child if needed from a situation of "mistreatment" or "the nasty man". It doesn't have to be called "abuse" for them to remove a child.

Hitting, belittling, neglect etc are all abusive behaviours. That is what they are, there is no changing that. It doesn't mean parents who aren't perfect (as none of us are) will have children taken away or be called child abusers but the behaviour is still abuse, it is still wrong.

Similarly, it shouldn't have to be specifically called child abuse for the social services to go in if needed. It will be a completely different level of abuse far from the less perfect parents "slip ups" but children on those situations need to know they can ask for help. Not have people like some on this thread who would just say "oh it's only discipline", "a parent can't help how a child feels". That's how children end up dead. It doesn't matter if it's 1% of children....even 1 child is 1 too many.
__________________
"Not because of who I am, but because of what you've done! Not because of what Ive done, but because of who you are!"
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old Jul 16, '17, 12:33 pm
pnewton's Avatar
pnewton pnewton is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 33,847
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The line between verbal abuse and discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy112 View Post
It is not un-reasonable to call abusive behavior abuse. We are not trying to label any parent who might raise their voice a criminal, nor is calling behavior abusive automatically a criminal allegation. .
Words are labels. One can always use a more precise language that does not include every behavior from speech, to beating to rape. For example, one can refer to speech the re-visits old wrongs, that is unforgiving, or nagging. One can say a parent is using language that is negatively labeling, controlling, or any manner of things.
__________________
"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus

Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old Jul 16, '17, 2:34 pm
Billy112's Avatar
Billy112 Billy112 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2015
Posts: 626
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The line between verbal abuse and discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton View Post
Words are labels. One can always use a more precise language that does not include every behavior from speech, to beating to rape. For example, one can refer to speech the re-visits old wrongs, that is unforgiving, or nagging. One can say a parent is using language that is negatively labeling, controlling, or any manner of things.
But the things you've listed are examples of abusive language. I don't at all mean to negate the experience of those who suffer physical or sexual abuse or to somehow set them in competition. The definitions I've found for "abuse" is, "use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse", and "treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly." There is no point in calling verbal abuse something different.
__________________
"How often I found where I should be going only by setting out for somewhere else."- Buckminster Fuller
--
Prayer to St. Jude for those in desperate situations:

http://www.ourcatholicprayers.com/pr...o-st-jude.html
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old Jul 16, '17, 2:42 pm
DarkLight DarkLight is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2012
Posts: 3,613
Default Re: The line between verbal abuse and discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy112 View Post
But the things you've listed are examples of abusive language. I don't at all mean to negate the experience of those who suffer physical or sexual abuse. The definitions I've found for "abuse" is, "use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse", and "treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly." There is no point in calling verbal abuse something different.
I think the problem is that, for many of us, "don't call it abuse" ended up negating our experiences as kids. The result of using many of the words recommended here is "Oh haha, isn't that just how parents are? You should be glad your mother cares about you."
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old Jul 16, '17, 2:52 pm
pnewton's Avatar
pnewton pnewton is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 33,847
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The line between verbal abuse and discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy112 View Post
There is no point in calling verbal abuse something different.
Then do that if you want. Just don't complain that others do not and blow off such rhetoric. In other words, be tolerant of others that do see a point.
__________________
"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus

Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old Jul 16, '17, 3:16 pm
Xantippe Xantippe is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: August 12, 2012
Posts: 15,470
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The line between verbal abuse and discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy112 View Post
But the things you've listed are examples of abusive language. I don't at all mean to negate the experience of those who suffer physical or sexual abuse or to somehow set them in competition. The definitions I've found for "abuse" is, "use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse", and "treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly." There is no point in calling verbal abuse something different.
In fact, before the modern era, "abuse" could be used to describe language.

Example: "The unhappy fans showered the player with abuse."

So, it's not actually that strong a word in the original usage--it's even a little euphemistic.
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old Jul 16, '17, 3:17 pm
Xantippe Xantippe is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: August 12, 2012
Posts: 15,470
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The line between verbal abuse and discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLight View Post
I think the problem is that, for many of us, "don't call it abuse" ended up negating our experiences as kids. The result of using many of the words recommended here is "Oh haha, isn't that just how parents are? You should be glad your mother cares about you."
The point of saying "abuse" is that it inherently means behavior that went too far and was not normal.
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old Jul 17, '17, 3:12 am
DarkLight DarkLight is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2012
Posts: 3,613
Default Re: The line between verbal abuse and discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xantippe View Post
The point of saying "abuse" is that it inherently means behavior that went too far and was not normal.
Right. Calling what my mother did "lecturing", for example, may be technically accurate. But it misses the point.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old Jul 17, '17, 7:58 am
gardenswithkids's Avatar
gardenswithkids gardenswithkids is offline
Veteran Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: December 19, 2004
Posts: 9,441
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The line between verbal abuse and discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLight View Post
Right. Calling what my mother did "lecturing", for example, may be technically accurate. But it misses the point.
I'm rather confused by what you mean by "verbal abuse". If I am understanding you correctly, you think your mother committed "verbal abuse" because she lectured you excessively about your past wrongs, not yelling or calling you names, but not letting the past wrongs go which left you feel unloved and unforgiven.

Do those of you who think that type of behavior qualifies as "verbal abuse" from a parent think that a child can ever commit "verbal abuse" against her parent by bringing up the parent's past mistakes? Is it possible for parents to ever feel unloved, unforgiven and unappreciated by their children? If a parent feels unloved, unappreciated and unforgiven by her now adult child, would it be correct to say that parent suffers from "elder abuse"?

One thing I've heard said about abusers is that they were often themselves abused.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old Jul 17, '17, 8:23 am
kptrs's Avatar
kptrs kptrs is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2015
Posts: 751
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The line between verbal abuse and discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by gardenswithkids View Post
I'm rather confused by what you mean by "verbal abuse". If I am understanding you correctly, you think your mother committed "verbal abuse" because she lectured you excessively about your past wrongs, not yelling or calling you names, but not letting the past wrongs go which left you feel unloved and unforgiven.

Do those of you who think that type of behavior qualifies as "verbal abuse" from a parent think that a child can ever commit "verbal abuse" against her parent by bringing up the parent's past mistakes? Is it possible for parents to ever feel unloved, unforgiven and unappreciated by their children? If a parent feels unloved, unappreciated and unforgiven by her now adult child, would it be correct to say that parent suffers from "elder abuse"?

One thing I've heard said about abusers is that they were often themselves abused.
I can't speak for DarkLight, but I have never told my parents about how I feel about the way they treated me as a child. As an adult, I include them in every family event, talk with them every day, and do what I can to help them. I give them gifts on all gift-giving occasions and tell them I love them. Any and all "rehashing" about the abuse they inflicted upon me during my childhood I do is done in therapy. To this day they know nothing about it. I'd even say I've gone out of my way to not make them feel bad about their actions. I'm undoing the damage all on my own and without their even knowing about it.
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old Jul 17, '17, 8:33 am
Xantippe Xantippe is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: August 12, 2012
Posts: 15,470
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The line between verbal abuse and discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by gardenswithkids View Post
I'm rather confused by what you mean by "verbal abuse". If I am understanding you correctly, you think your mother committed "verbal abuse" because she lectured you excessively about your past wrongs, not yelling or calling you names, but not letting the past wrongs go which left you feel unloved and unforgiven.

Do those of you who think that type of behavior qualifies as "verbal abuse" from a parent think that a child can ever commit "verbal abuse" against her parent by bringing up the parent's past mistakes? Is it possible for parents to ever feel unloved, unforgiven and unappreciated by their children? If a parent feels unloved, unappreciated and unforgiven by her now adult child, would it be correct to say that parent suffers from "elder abuse"?

One thing I've heard said about abusers is that they were often themselves abused.
If it happened over and over again and the parent was unable to escape from the situation (for example, being physically infirm, indigent, and living under the adult child's roof), sure.
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old Jul 17, '17, 9:02 am
Xantippe Xantippe is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: August 12, 2012
Posts: 15,470
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The line between verbal abuse and discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by kptrs View Post
I can't speak for DarkLight, but I have never told my parents about how I feel about the way they treated me as a child. As an adult, I include them in every family event, talk with them every day, and do what I can to help them. I give them gifts on all gift-giving occasions and tell them I love them. Any and all "rehashing" about the abuse they inflicted upon me during my childhood I do is done in therapy. To this day they know nothing about it. I'd even say I've gone out of my way to not make them feel bad about their actions. I'm undoing the damage all on my own and without their even knowing about it.
Yeah.

I haven't done therapy, but I have thought and written a lot about it on CAF the last several years and spoken a lot to my sister (who had basically the same experiences with my mom).

As an adult, I have actually never said boo to my mom about our relationship when I was at home being anything less than delightful. (Although about 6 years ago, I did lower the boom on my parents about the growing filth in their home. I told them that I wouldn't bring my kids to visit until they cleaned it up--and they did! The fridge is still scary, but the house as a whole is no longer teetering on the edge of hoarder show lookalike. Boy, they were mad at me, though.)

My mom and I actually have a great phone relationship. She's very mild-mannered and understanding and laughs at my stories.

That said, I would never leave a small child in my parents' care for longer than a bathroom break. And I wouldn't even leave a goldfish with them for the weekend.
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old Jul 17, '17, 9:04 am
DarkLight DarkLight is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2012
Posts: 3,613
Default Re: The line between verbal abuse and discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by gardenswithkids View Post
I'm rather confused by what you mean by "verbal abuse". If I am understanding you correctly, you think your mother committed "verbal abuse" because she lectured you excessively about your past wrongs, not yelling or calling you names, but not letting the past wrongs go which left you feel unloved and unforgiven.

Do those of you who think that type of behavior qualifies as "verbal abuse" from a parent think that a child can ever commit "verbal abuse" against her parent by bringing up the parent's past mistakes? Is it possible for parents to ever feel unloved, unforgiven and unappreciated by their children? If a parent feels unloved, unappreciated and unforgiven by her now adult child, would it be correct to say that parent suffers from "elder abuse"?

One thing I've heard said about abusers is that they were often themselves abused.
I would probably not apply it unless there is some reason the parent must rely on the child. I'm reluctant to ascribe abuse to a situation where the parties are mostly separate. (Similarly, I would refer to a parent striking an independent adult child as assault but not abuse.) I would also of course say the child has to be old enough for the category to be reasonably applied. I've definitely seen it applied in similar situations between husband and wife, which I think is an entirely fair characterization.
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old Jul 17, '17, 9:22 am
DarkLight DarkLight is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2012
Posts: 3,613
Default Re: The line between verbal abuse and discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xantippe View Post
Yeah.

I haven't done therapy, but I have thought and written a lot about it on CAF the last several years and spoken a lot to my sister (who had basically the same experiences with my mom).

As an adult, I have actually never said boo to my mom about our relationship when I was at home being anything less than delightful. (Although about 6 years ago, I did lower the boom on my parents about the growing filth in their home. I told them that I wouldn't bring my kids to visit until they cleaned it up--and they did! The fridge is still scary, but the house as a whole is no longer teetering on the edge of hoarder show lookalike. Boy, they were mad at me, though.)

My mom and I actually have a great phone relationship. She's very mild-mannered and understanding and laughs at my stories.

That said, I would never leave a small child in my parents' care for longer than a bathroom break. And I wouldn't even leave a goldfish with them for the weekend.
We've actually had some conversations about it, but in my case the conversations really only started after my mother broached the topic. It was easier for us because the period I remember 95% of this stuff happening is a period where my mother has acknowledged that there was some serious mental health issues going on that weren't being addressed. So there was more of a "mental health sucks for everyone involved" tone to the conversation.

Not that we haven't had it out a few times as well, but I at least try to keep those to what's currently going on.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Catholic Living > Family Life > Parenting

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
6631CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: tawny
6224Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: hazcompat
5193Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
4631Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4310Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
4055OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: Fischli
3293For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: GLam8833
3261Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Herculees
2828Let's Empty Purgatory 2
Last by: Tis Bearself
2449SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 9:35 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.