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  #46  
Old Mar 23, '17, 8:37 am
Ginny89 Ginny89 is offline
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian View Post
Neither Mohammad or St. Paul are of particular reference here, it is simply that naughty Muslims is a go-to position of particular frequency on the forum here.
I see. I am not the forum. It is not a go-to position for me: it is perfectly relevant in this discussion of apologies owed to women for the contents of sacred texts and double standards at play. Don't know HOW or WHY Prophet Muhammad may be excluded considering the contents of the Quran and Hadith.

FYI: naughty Christians is the go to position of secular humanists who would never dare criticize islam for worse things than they point at among Christians.

If a Christian apostle ought to apologize for benign things he SAID in scripture why should a free pass be given to the words and actions of the Muslim prophet with regard to women, considering what he said and DID? I am fine if mention of him is more bothersome than similar ones of an Apostle in the same vein, but I guess we are all free to defend what we feel is important.
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  #47  
Old Mar 23, '17, 8:40 am
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JharekCarnelian JharekCarnelian is offline
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by Ginny89 View Post
I see. I am not the forum. It is not a go-to position for me: it is perfectly relevant in this discussion of apologies owed to women for the contents of sacred texts and double standards at play. Don't know HOW or WHY Prophet Muhammad may be excluded considering the contents of the Quran and Hadith.

FYI: naughty Christians is the go to position of secular humanists who would never dare criticize islam for worse things than they point at among Christians.

If a Christian apostle ought to apologize for benign things he SAID in scripture why should a free pass be given to the words and actions of the Muslim prophet with regard to women, considering what he said and DID? I am fine if mention of him is more bothersome than similar ones of an Apostle in the same vein, but I guess we are all free to defend what we feel is important.
And I free to use the ignore filer where plainly we are talking past each other. Good day.
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  #48  
Old Mar 23, '17, 8:41 am
Ginny89 Ginny89 is offline
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian View Post
And I free to use the ignore filer where plainly we are talking past each other. Good day.
Good day sir.
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  #49  
Old Mar 23, '17, 5:01 pm
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian View Post
Chopping people up with machetes at a personal level and organizing massacres and whipping mobs into frenzy, some clergy were involved in such activities driven by tribalism. Nothing new there, Christian clergy, whether Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox etc. are unfortunately not immune to tribalist and ultra-nationalistic rhetoric and you can sadly find plenty of examples of such individuals from various Christian backgrounds who are clergy shaming their calling and Churches over the centuries by involvement in such affairs.
Do you know that Timothy Longman's conclusions aren't supported by the factual evidence?

Quote:
Timothy Longman has provided the most detailed discussion of the role of religion in the Rwandan genocide in Christianity and Genocide in Rwanda, published in 2010. Longman argues that both Catholic and Protestant churches helped to make the genocide possible by giving moral sanction to the killing. Churches had longed played ethnic politics themselves, favoring the Tutsi during the colonial period then switching allegiance to the Hutu after 1959, sending a message that ethnic discrimination was consistent with church teaching. The church leaders had close ties with the political leaders, and after the genocide began, the church leaders called on the population to support the new interim government, the very government supporting the genocide.
Link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...#1994_Genocide
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  #50  
Old Mar 23, '17, 9:47 pm
I trust I trust is offline
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

Has the Catholic Church apologized for the actions of Judas?

After all he was an Apostle.

The Church has always been made up of sinners.

I will not reject Christ, or His Church, because of the actions of one of his Apostles.
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  #51  
Old Mar 24, '17, 3:09 am
stinkcat_14 stinkcat_14 is offline
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by I trust View Post
Has the Catholic Church apologized for the actions of Judas?

After all he was an Apostle.

The Church has always been made up of sinners.

I will not reject Christ, or His Church, because of the actions of one of his Apostles.
None of our first bishops behaved particularly admirably during the Tridium.
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  #52  
Old Mar 24, '17, 8:42 am
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DaddyGirl DaddyGirl is offline
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by Ginny89 View Post
Oh, ok ok, how silly of me. I think I get it now:

If the known human author of a text that says offensive things about women attributes the statements to a supernatural entity, it is AOK with you! No apologies are desirable in such a context: You see, it is not the things said about women in the texts that matters, it is who the human authors attribute their words to! Excellent.

Come to think of it, all St. Paul's letters were inspired by the Holy Spirit so I hope that clears matters. By golly! Joseph Smith's book, decrees and laws also came from divine revelation, so no apologies there either. I guess I'm confused about the "judaeo-Christian Bible" though in the same post, though.... Haven't we just established that if the texts of known human author are attributed to a supernatural entity there can be no talk of apologies? (Quickly heads back up to read post again...) Yep! We just established that when the works of human authors are attributed to God, any mention of apologies is plain rubbish.

FYI: I asked if you would want an apology from the prophet Muhammad too: You answered that you havent read any of his personal letters. Lets not let you confuse yourself so badly again.

Sorry, but I can barely decipher the ideas and conclusions you are trying to express here. It seems you're repeating the same stuff I already corrected.


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  #53  
Old Mar 24, '17, 9:13 am
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian View Post
Chopping people up with machetes at a personal level and organizing massacres and whipping mobs into frenzy, some clergy were involved in such activities driven by tribalism. Nothing new there, Christian clergy, whether Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox etc. are unfortunately not immune to tribalist and ultra-nationalistic rhetoric and you can sadly find plenty of examples of such individuals from various Christian backgrounds who are clergy shaming their calling and Churches over the centuries by involvement in such affairs.

Too right.
No group of people are immune, from any religion/belief system in any century.
And even if pope Francis asks for forgiveness on behalf of Catholics, that surely does not mean other groups were not involved as well.
It simply means...he is wise and humble enough to know that words of love and forgiveness may help the healing process of many and may even help prevent future atrocities like this.
Again...good on him.

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  #54  
Old Mar 24, '17, 6:16 pm
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

I think it's great. Sure more faiths than just Catholic did wrong, but someone has to make the first move. I think it shows Pope Francis' humility that he did so first.
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  #55  
Old Mar 24, '17, 10:30 pm
Ginny89 Ginny89 is offline
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by DaddyGirl View Post
Sorry, but I can barely decipher the ideas and conclusions you are trying to express here. It seems you're repeating the same stuff I already corrected.


.
Yes you did correct me, dear. You made it clear that Mohammad's words and deeds about women do not concern you because he said they were from Allah. Just letting you know you can relax about St. Paul too. For the same reason. I hope that's simple enough for a journalist to understand.
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  #56  
Old Mar 25, '17, 6:50 am
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by Ginny89 View Post
Yes you did correct me, dear. You made it clear that Mohammad's words and deeds about women do not concern you because he said they were from Allah. Just letting you know you can relax about St. Paul too. For the same reason. I hope that's simple enough for a journalist to understand.

Interesting. That's not what I said at all.
But I suspect no amount of correcting on my part will have any effect on the scenario to which you are wedded.


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