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  #91  
Old Jan 21, '09, 12:50 pm
ladybri77 ladybri77 is offline
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Default Re: What should a homosexual person do

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Originally Posted by StAnastasia View Post
Anyone who is unmarried is by definition celibate, as "celibate" means "unmarried."
I thought celibate meant abstinent, not having sex.
  #92  
Old Jan 21, '09, 12:54 pm
Shlomey Shlomey is offline
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Default Re: What should a homosexual person do

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Originally Posted by dumbseeker View Post
I am curious about the teachings on homosexuality. Since homosexual acts are immoral, does that mean the homosexuals should not have sex forever?

Can they be priests?
Yes, all homosexuals - as single heterosexuals - are called to abstinence from any sexual action.

Sex is for marriage.


About the priesthood: yes they can be priests given they are not
1) supportive of the lifestyle - i.e. the non-chaste lifestyle
2) sexually active
3) found to have deep-seated tendencies (here's where understanding gets problematic). I interpret this to be those who cannot "govern their desires" as St. Dominic put it and perhaps also those who are obviously "gay" in terms of having feminine mannerisms.

I can see no issue with someone who happens to be gay, but is physically and mentally capable of livign in purity and obedience to the teachings of the Holy Church.
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  #93  
Old Jan 21, '09, 12:55 pm
StAnastasia StAnastasia is offline
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Default Re: What should a homosexual person do

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Originally Posted by ladybri77 View Post
I thought celibate meant abstinent, not having sex.
"Caelibatus" = "unmarried." "Abstinence" means not eating food, drinking alcohol, having sex, or enjoying whatever it is from which you are abstaining. You can be celibate and have sex, married and be abstinent, or a variety of combinations.
  #94  
Old Jan 21, '09, 12:59 pm
ladybri77 ladybri77 is offline
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Default Re: What should a homosexual person do

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Originally Posted by StAnastasia View Post
"Caelibatus" = "unmarried." "Abstinence" means not eating food, drinking alcohol, having sex, or enjoying whatever it is from which you are abstaining. You can be celibate and have sex, married and be abstinent, or a variety of combinations.
Well, I got one out of 3, eh?
  #95  
Old Jan 21, '09, 1:09 pm
StAnastasia StAnastasia is offline
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Default Re: What should a homosexual person do

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Originally Posted by ladybri77 View Post
Well, I got one out of 3, eh?
One out of three combinations?

I don't know when the slide in interpretation began; probably when the popular press -- who did not know the etymology of "caelibatus" -- began to assume that the celibacy of priests referred not to their unmarried state but to their (presumed) sexual abstinence. It is unfortunate, because "dumbing down" deprives us of the linguistic richness of Latin.

StAnastasia
  #96  
Old Jan 21, '09, 1:14 pm
ladybri77 ladybri77 is offline
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Default Re: What should a homosexual person do

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Originally Posted by StAnastasia View Post
One out of three combinations?

I don't know when the slide in interpretation began; probably when the popular press -- who did not know the etymology of "caelibatus" -- began to assume that the celibacy of priests referred not to their unmarried state but to their (presumed) sexual abstinence. It is unfortunate, because "dumbing down" deprives us of the linguistic richness of Latin.

StAnastasia
That would explain it then.
  #97  
Old Jan 21, '09, 2:13 pm
Kevin42 Kevin42 is offline
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Default Re: What should a homosexual person do

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Originally Posted by Shlomey View Post
About the priesthood: yes they can be priests given they are not
1) supportive of the lifestyle - i.e. the non-chaste lifestyle
2) sexually active
3) found to have deep-seated tendencies (here's where understanding gets problematic). I interpret this to be those who cannot "govern their desires" as St. Dominic put it and perhaps also those who are obviously "gay" in terms of having feminine mannerisms.

I can see no issue with someone who happens to be gay, but is physically and mentally capable of livign in purity and obedience to the teachings of the Holy Church.
I was recently told that basically, if a person was not capable of entering into a marriage, then he should not be considering the priesthood either. I really do not know that much about the issue, but that kind of makes sense.

Peace and good.
  #98  
Old Jan 21, '09, 2:31 pm
StAnastasia StAnastasia is offline
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Default Re: What should a homosexual person do

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Originally Posted by Kevin42 View Post
I was recently told that basically, if a person was not capable of entering into a marriage, then he should not be considering the priesthood either. I really do not know that much about the issue, but that kind of makes sense. Peace and good.
It doesn't make sense. If a call to the priesthood involves giving one's life in celibate service to the Church, what difference does it make whether or not that person is capable of entering into marriage?
  #99  
Old Jan 21, '09, 2:38 pm
Kevin42 Kevin42 is offline
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Default Re: What should a homosexual person do

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Originally Posted by StAnastasia View Post
It doesn't make sense. If a call to the priesthood involves giving one's life in celibate service to the Church, what difference does it make whether or not that person is capable of entering into marriage?
Well the priesthood is marriage to the Church in a sense. If a man is not prepared to marry a woman and perform the job of being a husband and a father, is he prepared to perform those same duties in a different way as a priest? I don't know, but I am bringing it up because I truly would like to have a more complete idea of what the answer to this question is.

Also, what I hear discussed often, is whether or not people who deal with very strong SSA can enter the priesthood because they are called to live celibately no matter what, therefore they are not "sacrificing" the marriage and marital relations that follow. Now, I personally am not sure if this is a valid point or not because all I seem to hear are people's opinions without any authoritative source to back them up.
  #100  
Old Jan 21, '09, 3:12 pm
StAnastasia StAnastasia is offline
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Default Re: What should a homosexual person do

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Originally Posted by Kevin42 View Post
Well the priesthood is marriage to the Church in a sense. If a man is not prepared to marry a woman and perform the job of being a husband and a father, is he prepared to perform those same duties in a different way as a priest?
That's a nice metaphor, but how is it relevant? Analogously, if a woman has been called since girlhood to be a teaching or missionary sister, why in the world should she undergo some sort of qualification test to determine whether she's capable of serving as a wife and mother?
  #101  
Old Jan 21, '09, 3:24 pm
Shlomey Shlomey is offline
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Default Re: What should a homosexual person do

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Originally Posted by Kevin42 View Post
I was recently told that basically, if a person was not capable of entering into a marriage, then he should not be considering the priesthood either. I really do not know that much about the issue, but that kind of makes sense.

Peace and good.
Oddly enough, the answer tot his is a sarcastic one coming from "fundies":

"Gay men are capable to marry women! They have all rights to do so."
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  #102  
Old Jan 21, '09, 3:43 pm
Kevin42 Kevin42 is offline
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Default Re: What should a homosexual person do

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Originally Posted by Shlomey View Post
Oddly enough, the answer tot his is a sarcastic one coming from "fundies":

"Gay men are capable to marry women! They have all rights to do so."
Well of course they are physically capable of going through a marriage ceremony, but do they find themselves fully prepared as a person to marry a woman and engage in all the responsibilities that go with that?

I think that this is very relevant. Being a priest is being a spiritual father to a flock and being a bridegroom to the Church. That is much different than simply becoming a religious brother or sister. After all, simply through baptism, all Christians are already brothers and sisters. Priests however have a much higher calling and many more responsibilities.
  #103  
Old Jan 21, '09, 3:52 pm
Shlomey Shlomey is offline
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Default Re: What should a homosexual person do

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Originally Posted by Kevin42 View Post
Well of course they are physically capable of going through a marriage ceremony, but do they find themselves fully prepared as a person to marry a woman and engage in all the responsibilities that go with that?

I think that this is very relevant. Being a priest is being a spiritual father to a flock and being a bridegroom to the Church. That is much different than simply becoming a religious brother or sister. After all, simply through baptism, all Christians are already brothers and sisters. Priests however have a much higher calling and many more responsibilities.

Remembering a story told to me by a heterosexual hassidic Jew who has a very religious gay friend (also hassidic) that was happily married and a father, my answer would be: yes.

If that is the way we base the judgement on, then many heterosexuals would be thrown out of the seminaries too. I have encountered not a few who state that they have never really had a desire to marry or have children, but it was always "God, God, God".

The coin has two sides...
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  #104  
Old Jan 21, '09, 3:53 pm
Matrix Refugee Matrix Refugee is offline
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Default Re: What should a homosexual person do

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Originally Posted by pathia View Post
What else is there for those that feel nothing? I went to church for the first two decades and some of my life. I have felt nothing, I have never felt God or Jesus, or anything. Church is merely this cold place where I feel lonely, because no one there wants to be a part of my life.

What is there for someone, when God does not appear to be there? I try so hard, but I have never felt anything special at any point in my life outside of the company of other human beings in friendship and created families, since my own are not comfortable with my chosen way of living despite the fact I am not sexually active. Simply, they are not comfortable in the fact I will not 'cure' myself and marry.

How can you ask someone to give something up, because of something they don't ever feel?
Sounds to me like you're going through a dark night of the soul, or something like it. And believe me, I am there myself. I'm bicelibate (ie. I'm bisexual, but I have never had and probably never will have relations with another person of either gender), and I put my sexuality in God's hands to do with it as He sees fit. However, I find going to church to be, all too often, a dry experience. I feel invisible because I am a single woman and thus, I'm there at Mass by myself or with my parents, and I obviously don't have a husband and the pewful of kids that too many people in the Church seem to think I'm supposed to have (not slamming large families, I'm merely expressing how I feel). I don't have what it takes to be a nun -- that and I tried to join the Visitation Sisters, since they tend to accept women whose health doesn't allow them to join the more rigorous orders, but they wouldn't answer my letters after I told them I'm autistic.

All too often, I feel like I'm alone in the Church with God and the one or two priests who respect what I am. I know God loves me, but right now, it's hard to feel it. It's hard to feel it when otherwise good charitable Catholics don't get it, who think people like me just need a good person of the complimentary gender to "straighten (us) out", or who think some amount of therapy will make me into a happy straight person, or who think that all same-sex attracted people have some kind of "agenda" to take over the world or corrupt their kids, when we *just* want to be treated like other people. This is my cross in life. I accept it, I may not like it, and I have days when I'm like Christ limping through the streets of Jerusalem on the way to Golgotha, with the crowd jeering at him and (most likely) throwing thing things at Him, and every time He staggers and stumbles, one of the soldiers comes over and kicks Him in the ribs...

But I keep going. I keep going to Mass. I keep saying the rosary. I keep going, in the hope that someday, more people in the Church will see Christ in their gay and bisexual brethren and embrace Christ in us. That's all I ask for. Just to be loved as Christ loved me and every other same-sex attracted person who lived or will ever live. He died for those moments when my feelings have edged over the line into desire, but His death wasn't to "zap" me for having these feelings and desires. His death was to give me and every other same-sex attracted person the chance to be more than just the emotional and hormonal processes going on in our head. I'm sure if Christ came back to earth for a visit, He'd be "hanging out" with gays and bisexuals the same way He hung out with tax collectors and fishermen and prostitutes when He walked this earth, and His actions would scandalize the modern age's equivalents to the Pharisees and Sadduccees. He'd probably accept a cold drink from a gay couple the same way He accepted a drink of water from a Samaritan woman who was living with a guy she wasn't married to. Sure, He'd give them a nudge in the right direction, but I doubt He'd come down like a ton of bricks like so many Christians today tend to do.

I know I'm rambling into too long don't read territory, but this has been on my mind and heart for a very long time and I hope some good comes about from me unloading it here...
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  #105  
Old Jan 21, '09, 4:10 pm
Kevin42 Kevin42 is offline
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Default Re: What should a homosexual person do

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Originally Posted by Shlomey View Post
Remembering a story told to me by a heterosexual hassidic Jew who has a very religious gay friend (also hassidic) that was happily married and a father, my answer would be: yes.

If that is the way we base the judgement on, then many heterosexuals would be thrown out of the seminaries too. I have encountered not a few who state that they have never really had a desire to marry or have children, but it was always "God, God, God".

The coin has two sides...

Good points indeed! As I said, I wish I could find something more in depth and authoritative on this issue, but I have yet to come across such a thing.

I should also clarify that I was not implying that all men with SSA are incapable of getting married and fulfilling the duties that come with marriage. I was simply saying that in my discussions with others, this is something that has come up as possibly being important in discerning ones vocation.

Peace and good!
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