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  #16  
Old Apr 21, '17, 7:15 am
PolliceVerso PolliceVerso is offline
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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Originally Posted by SMOM View Post
I think you need to take into account the Catholic view that ultimate salvation requires more than justification, it requires sanctification as well.

(Just to throw a wrench into your works. )
This is exactly right, but I was trying to simplify things by focusing on justification. It may not have helped.

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Originally Posted by Bookcat View Post
Jesus does not teach such nor does Peter and John.
Take a look at John 10:28, 1 Peter 1:3-5, Phillippians 1:6, among others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SyCarl View Post
Reformed teaching does take into account sanctification. Confusion arises because different meaning given to terms by Catholics and Reformed.

To Reformed, salvation is made up of four stages or parts.

Regeneration is when our sins are forgiven. We are given a new heart and spirit and the Holy Spirit indwells us. This allows us to want to please God and makes us capable of working to that end.

Justification is viewed as a legal term whereby the regenerate is viewed as righteous by God. While we have been changed by regeneration, we do not actually become righteous as this requires perfection which is not achieved in this lifetime.

Sanctification is where we work our salvation by trying to do things pleasing to God. These can be acceptable to God because justification covers any defects in our works arising from motivation for these works is not always solely love. Sanctification is never completed in this lifetime.

Glorification arises when we truly become perfectly righteous after death.

Salvation is by grace because it is only received as God's free gift. Justification is by faith since it what God requires to count us as righteous. Faith is only true if it is such that it results in the desire and the actual doing of the works required for sanctification.
.
You make a good point here. Much of the difference between Catholics and Protestants is terminology. Catholics tend to conflate justification, sanctification, and regeneration, and that's not a criticism. Protestants, especially Reformed Protestants, tend to precisely define and and separate them. Protestants define justification as the legal state we are in before God, but inseparable (yet distinct) from regeneration, or replacing the heart of stone with a heart of flesh, and inseparable (yet distinct) from sanctification, or the spiritual growth we experience due to the work of the Holy Spirit through Word and Sacrament.

So Protestants would say justification itself does not cause in inward spiritual change, but regeneration and sanctification do affect real inward change, and these are invariably linked, yet distinct, from justification.

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Originally Posted by Vico View Post
The dogmatic elements are dogmas on efficacious grace and sufficient grace, and doctirne on the particular judgment (Councils of Lyons and Florence, and Benedietus Deus).
  • The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible. (De fide.) - Council of Trent
  • There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens). (De fide.) - Council of Trent
  • Immediately after death the particular judgment takes place, in which, by a Divine Sentence of Judgment, the eternal fate of the deceased person is decided. (Sent. fidei proxima.)

Full Quotes:
If anyone says that man's free will, moved and awakened by God, does in no manner co-operate when it assents to God, Who excites and calls it, thereby disposing and preparing itself to receive the grace of justification; and (if anyone says) that it cannot dissent if it wishes, but that, like some inanimate thing, it does nothing whatever, and only remains passive, let him be anathema.
A couple of points here. First, I agree that a sort of judgment takes place immediately after death, when those who are saved go immediately to Heaven and the unsaved to Hell. But these are temporary spiritual locations until the last judgment, when our physical bodies are resurrected in their glorified state and the saved go to the New Heavens and New Earth, and the unsaved are cast into Hell for eternity.

Second, I agree with your last paragraph. The emphasis being that we only turn to God because He "excites and calls" us. In terms of our initial call, we are passive: we are dead in our "trespasses and sins," and could therefore not come to know Christ without the work of God. Ephesians 2:1-5.
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  #17  
Old Apr 21, '17, 8:23 am
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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Originally Posted by PolliceVerso View Post
Justification is a legal term that God will use to declare all true believers righteous at the last judgment (Romans 2).
This is not correct. Justification is an English translation of an ancient Greek word, that was universally understood by the entire Church to mean "make righteous", up until some 16th Century western Europeans introduced a forensic legal interpretation. Source: the church that speaks Greek - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justif...tern_Orthodoxy

Quote:
And that leads me to the Catholic error. Catholics believe that grace is infused at the time of baptism, and this renders us justified before God.
The Catholic view is not an error. It is the universal view of the worldwide church prior to the 16th Century western European Reformation. See Canon 13 of the Council of Orange: https://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/ORANGE.HTM

Quote:
Saving faith is also persevering, meaning it is not simply a "one and done" prayer or baptism. Thus a true believer will constantly confess and repent: they don't lose their justification, but neither should they consider themselves justified because they "asked Jesus into their heart" at some point in their life (a common Protestant error).
This is the current Reformed view, which is incorrect. It makes salvation entirely subjective and unknowable, because even if you have lived righteously every day of your life since baptism, you don't really know if you are saved because tomorrow you might fall back into sin and not repent.

The correct, historic, universal teaching of the church is that saving grace is given to everyone who is validly baptized. This is an objective criteria - if you were validly baptized, then you received saving grace. You don't have to prove it to yourself every day of your life, hounded by nagging thoughts of "Was I really saved?"

As Saint Bernard explains it, saving grace means that the freedom of will that was lost through original sin is restored at baptism. The baptized person is then free to choose whether to continue living righteously, or to choose to sin mortally. If you choose to sin mortally, you must confess your sin to a priest to be absolved, which again is an objective event - the sacrament of confession objectively restores a person to saving grace. You don't have to worry, "Was I really truly repentant enough?"

This book might help: https://archive.org/details/treatiseofstbern00bern
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  #18  
Old Apr 21, '17, 8:28 am
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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Originally Posted by PolliceVerso View Post
T


Take a look at John 10:28, 1 Peter 1:3-5, Phillippians 1:6, among others.
As I noted

Jesus does not teach such nor does Peter and John. Nor does Paul.

None of those verses teach what you asserted.

And others are rather to the point that one can yes loose ones salvation (and that one can be restored to life too).

Paul is very serious about such as is Jesus as is John and Peter....
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  #19  
Old Apr 21, '17, 8:28 am
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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  #20  
Old Apr 21, '17, 9:09 am
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PolliceVerso View Post


Take a look at John 10:28, 1 Peter 1:3-5, Phillippians 1:6, among others.
It would help if you could kindly provide the actual passages.



John 10:28

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.



But it does not mean that God cannot cut you off.

But you should not read this passage in isolation. You should pair this with some other passages to get a complete picture...like:

Heb 10:

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.




.
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  #21  
Old Apr 21, '17, 11:13 am
PolliceVerso PolliceVerso is offline
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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Originally Posted by PluniaZ View Post
This is not correct. Justification is an English translation of an ancient Greek word, that was universally understood by the entire Church to mean "make righteous", up until some 16th Century western Europeans introduced a forensic legal interpretation. Source: the church that speaks Greek - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justif...tern_Orthodoxy
You're on shaky ground here. The Greek word, dikaiůō, means "to acquit," or "to make absolution." Those are absolutely legal terms. But I agree with your broader point: to be justified by God one must have a true, persevering (or lasting) faith that produces good works. But the act of justification itself has a purely legal connotation.

[quote=pablope;14604068]
Quote:

It would help if you could kindly provide the actual passages.



John 10:28

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.



But it does not mean that God cannot cut you off.

But you should not read this passage in isolation. You should pair this with some other passages to get a complete picture...like:

Heb 10:

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

.
Good point about providing Scripture passages - will do! And I agree with your point. Those who are saved will genuinely strive to live a good moral life that is pleasing to God. Those who don't were never really saved at all.
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  #22  
Old Apr 21, '17, 11:47 am
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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Originally Posted by PolliceVerso View Post
You're on shaky ground here. The Greek word, dikaiůō, means "to acquit," or "to make absolution." Those are absolutely legal terms. But I agree with your broader point: to be justified by God one must have a true, persevering (or lasting) faith that produces good works. But the act of justification itself has a purely legal connotation.
So the Greek Orthodox Church doesn't understand their own language? Show me anyone before the Reformation who says that justification, as used in the writings of Saint Paul, has a purely legal connotation.
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  #23  
Old Apr 21, '17, 12:12 pm
PolliceVerso PolliceVerso is offline
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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So the Greek Orthodox Church doesn't understand their own language? Show me anyone before the Reformation who says that justification, as used in the writings of Saint Paul, has a purely legal connotation.
John Chrysostom for starters:

"What does the word Ďjustifiedí mean? That if there could be a trial and an examination of the things He had done for the Jews, and of what had been done on their part toward Him, the victory would be with God, and all the right would be on His side.Ē

Sounds like a legal term to me.
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Old Apr 21, '17, 12:18 pm
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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Y
Yes no one can snatch a person out of the hand of Christ...

But he can leave....he can turn away from Christ ....
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  #25  
Old Apr 21, '17, 1:24 pm
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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Originally Posted by PolliceVerso View Post
John Chrysostom for starters:

"What does the word Ďjustifiedí mean? That if there could be a trial and an examination of the things He had done for the Jews, and of what had been done on their part toward Him, the victory would be with God, and all the right would be on His side.Ē

Sounds like a legal term to me.
That shows it can have a legal connotation. It does not prove it has a purely legal connotation, which is what you claimed.

That Chrysostom does not view justification as a purely legal matter is evident from his commentary on Romans 3:25:

"So also is the declaring of His righteousness not only that He is Himself righteous, but that He does also make them that are filled with the putrefying sores of sin suddenly righteous. And it is to explain this, viz. what is declaring, that he has added, That He might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus"

And again on verse 31:

"What was the object of the Law and what the scope of all its enactments? Why, to make man righteous. But this it had no power to do. For all, it says, have sinned: but faith when it came accomplished it. For when a man is once a believer, he is straightway justified. The intention then of the Law it did establish, and what all its enactments aim after, this has it brought to a consummation. Consequently it has not disannulled, but perfected it. Here then three points he has demonstrated; first, that without the Law it is possible to be justified; next, that this the Law could not effect; and, that faith is not opposed to the Law."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210207.htm
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  #26  
Old Apr 22, '17, 2:10 am
LatinRight LatinRight is offline
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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Yes no one can snatch a person out of the hand of Christ...

But he can leave....he can turn away from Christ ....

God bless Bookcat and every readers of the CAF.


Bookcat you interpreted John 10:28 ďAnd I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My handĒ as follows:

Yes no one can snatch a person out of the hand of Christ Ö

But he can leave Ö he can turn away from Christ


If your above meaning is:
He can turn away from Christ in the way he end up in hell, I suggest, you need to correct your post as follows:

Yes no one can snatch a person out of the hand of Christ Ö

And he can never turn away from Christ in the way he end up in hell.



Of course if I donít prove my interpretation/correction, you may say:
You must be joking, my interpretation of John 10:28 is correct: He can turn away from Christ in the way he end up in hell.


I prove it to you Bookcat with the Scriptures and with Catholic teachings and Iím not joking my interpretation of John 10:28 is correct.

He can never turn away from Christ in the way he end up in hell.




Letís put John 10:28 into the context of John 10:26-30.

v. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

v. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

v. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

v. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fatherís hand.

v. 30 I and My Father are one.


Concerning v. 26, we must find out: Who are those sheep who are not Christís sheep?

According to John 8:42-47, those who are not Christís sheep, they are the sons of the Devil/Satan and they are the sheep of Satan.


Verse 28 ďI give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;Ē gives us the identity of Christís sheep.

The identity of Christís sheep: Godís children/elect are Christís sheep of John 10:27-29.

The identity of the elect in The Predestination of the Elect are Godís children/elect/Christís sheep.



The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. Ė The predestination of the elect



Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.



God's unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the "Book of Life" (liber vitś, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.




(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God's knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote. Emphasis added.


Continue
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  #27  
Old Apr 22, '17, 2:16 am
LatinRight LatinRight is offline
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

Continuation


BOOK OF LIFE

God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world by taken out the names of the reprobates (children of the Devil/Satanís sheep) from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace and as the results they all end up in hell.

Practically by their vehement rejection of God and His grace the reprobates (children of the Devil/Satanís sheep) predestined themselves to hell.

In Catholic Theology only the reprobates (children of the Devil/Satanís sheep) end up in hell who are predestined to hell before the foundation of the world.


From the completion, the Book of life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS no ERASURES.


Some people can be confused about the Book of Life, because God has completed the Book of Life in His ďchronological orderĒ before the foundation of the world, but in the Bible concerning the events in the Book of Life, for our understanding, written in our chronological order, like the cancellations from the Book of Life done at our present time, this is not the case.

This fact can cause confusion, because someone may wrongly conclude; Godís child/elect (sheep given to Christ) can lose salvation, which is a theological impossibility.


As we see above, Concerning the Book of Life there is only two group of people in the world.

Godís children/elect/Christís sheep. Ė All predestined to heaven.

Satanís children/reprobates/Satanís sheep. Ė All predestined to hell.


There is no in between position, every member of the entire human race is a member one of the above two groups.


It is common knowledge, some reprobates (we donít know who they are) attend among different Christian groups.

Some of them even can gain some kind of an ďintellectual faithĒ or an ďintellectual like salvationĒ but their memory and will could never contain the desire to go to heaven, to have everlasting life in heaven with God or to persevere to the end of their life.


As God never predestined them to heaven and as God is not a deceiver, God never put into their memory and will the desire to go to heaven or to persevere to the end of their life.

How God could put into their memory and will the desire to go to heaven, when they are all predestined to hell before the foundation of the world, they are children of the Devil/Satanís sheep.


I believe the above information more then enough not to mix together Christís sheep/elect (John 10:27-29) who cannot lose their salvation, with Satanís sheep/reprobates (John 8:44-47; John 10:26) who are predestined to hell before the foundation of the world.


If you believe Bookcat, Christís sheep of John 10:27-29 cannot end up in hell, please disregard my posts.


God bless Bookcat and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight
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Old Apr 22, '17, 4:02 am
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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..
As God never predestined them to heaven and as God is not a deceiver, God never put into their memory and will the desire to go to heaven or to persevere to the end of their life.

How God could put into their memory and will the desire to go to heaven, when they are all predestined to hell before the foundation of the world, they are children of the Devil/Satanís sheep. ...
God gives sufficient graces to the reprobate, and the freedom of man's will, and knows the two state end with various degrees of merit and suffering. So, for example, unbaptized dead infants be wihout merit so do not exist in heaven, may experience a natural peace rather than horrible sufferings in their hell state.


Christ did not die for the predestined only. (de fide) Council of Trent Chap. 2. On the Dispensation and Mystery of the Advent of Christ
"Hence it was that the Heavenly Father sent His Son to men that He might redeem the Jews who were under the Law and that the gentiles who followed not after justice might receive justice and that all might receive the adoption of sons. Him God hath proposed to be a propitiation through faith in his blood for our sins and not alone for ours but for those ofthe whole world.
Canons
Can. 4. If anyone shall say that man's free will moved and aroused by God does not cooperate by assenting to God who rouses and calls, whereby it disposes and prepares itself to obtain the grace of justification, and that it cannot dissent, if it wishes, but that like something inanimate it does nothing at all and is merely in a passive state: let him be anathema.

Can. 5. If anyone shall say that after the sin of Adam man's free will was lost and destroyed, or that it is a thing in name only, indeed a title without a reality, a fiction, moreover, brought into the Church by Satan: let him be anathema.

Can. 6. If anyone shall say that it is not in the power of man to make his ways evil, but that God produces the evil as well as the good works, not only by permission, but also properly and of Himself, so that the betrayal of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul: let him be anathema.
Errors of the Jansenists, condemned in a Decr. of the Holy Office 1690, Pope Alexander VII. (Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma)
1. In the state of fallen nature, for mortal [Viva: formale] sin and for demerit that liberty is sufficient by which the mortal sin or demerit was voluntary and free in its cause, namely, in original sin and in the will of Adam sinning.

4. Christ gave Himself for us as an oblation to God, not for the elect only, but for all the faithful only.

5. Pagans, Jews, heretics, and others of this kind do not receive in any way any influence from Jesus Christ, and so you will rightly infer from this that in them there is a bare and weak will without any sufficient grace.

6. Grace sufficient for our state is not so much useful as pernicious, so that we can justly pray: From sufficient grace deliver us, O Lord.

7. Every human act is a deliberate choice of God or of the world; if of God, it is love of the Father; if of the world, it is concupiscence of the flesh, that is, it is evil.
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Old Apr 22, '17, 5:50 am
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God gives sufficient graces to the reprobate, and the freedom of man's will, and knows the two state end with various degrees of merit and suffering. So, for example, unbaptized dead infants be wihout merit so do not exist in heaven, may experience a natural peace rather than horrible sufferings in their hell state.


Christ did not die for the predestined only. (de fide) Council of Trent Chap. 2. On the Dispensation and Mystery of the Advent of Christ
"Hence it was that the Heavenly Father sent His Son to men that He might redeem the Jews who were under the Law and that the gentiles who followed not after justice might receive justice and that all might receive the adoption of sons. Him God hath proposed to be a propitiation through faith in his blood for our sins and not alone for ours but for those ofthe whole world.
Canons
Can. 4. If anyone shall say that man's free will moved and aroused by God does not cooperate by assenting to God who rouses and calls, whereby it disposes and prepares itself to obtain the grace of justification, and that it cannot dissent, if it wishes, but that like something inanimate it does nothing at all and is merely in a passive state: let him be anathema.

Can. 5. If anyone shall say that after the sin of Adam man's free will was lost and destroyed, or that it is a thing in name only, indeed a title without a reality, a fiction, moreover, brought into the Church by Satan: let him be anathema.

Can. 6. If anyone shall say that it is not in the power of man to make his ways evil, but that God produces the evil as well as the good works, not only by permission, but also properly and of Himself, so that the betrayal of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul: let him be anathema.
Errors of the Jansenists, condemned in a Decr. of the Holy Office 1690, Pope Alexander VII. (Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma)
1. In the state of fallen nature, for mortal [Viva: formale] sin and for demerit that liberty is sufficient by which the mortal sin or demerit was voluntary and free in its cause, namely, in original sin and in the will of Adam sinning.

4. Christ gave Himself for us as an oblation to God, not for the elect only, but for all the faithful only.

5. Pagans, Jews, heretics, and others of this kind do not receive in any way any influence from Jesus Christ, and so you will rightly infer from this that in them there is a bare and weak will without any sufficient grace.

6. Grace sufficient for our state is not so much useful as pernicious, so that we can justly pray: From sufficient grace deliver us, O Lord.

7. Every human act is a deliberate choice of God or of the world; if of God, it is love of the Father; if of the world, it is concupiscence of the flesh, that is, it is evil.

God bless Vico and every readers of the CAF.


God desire is that everyone saved. Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

God gives everyone free will and sufficient grace to be saved.

The reprobates are Reprobates because of their vehement rejection of God and His grace, they completely reject everything God offer to them.


I believe God offered everlasting life in heaven for the reprobates, but the reprobates vehemently rejected it, so they practically predestined themselves to hell.

For the above reason, God didnít predestine the reprobates to heaven.

For their rejection they donít have a desire to go to heaven, donít have a desire to live forever in heaven with God, they donít have a desire to persevere to the end of their life.

God bless Vico and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight
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Old Apr 22, '17, 8:44 am
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Default Re: Reconciling Protestant and Catholic views of justification

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God bless Vico and every readers of the CAF.


God desire is that everyone saved. Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

God gives everyone free will and sufficient grace to be saved.

The reprobates are Reprobates because of their vehement rejection of God and His grace, they completely reject everything God offer to them.


I believe God offered everlasting life in heaven for the reprobates, but the reprobates vehemently rejected it, so they practically predestined themselves to hell.

For the above reason, God didnít predestine the reprobates to heaven.

For their rejection they donít have a desire to go to heaven, donít have a desire to live forever in heaven with God, they donít have a desire to persevere to the end of their life.

God bless Vico and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight
That is not to say that those damned (at the particular judgment) do not accept grace one or more times before their final unrepentence, nor that the saved (at the particular judgement) do not reject grace one or more times before their final repentence. Also there may be a desire to persevere to the end of their life that is lost.
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