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  #61  
Old Apr 20, '17, 5:23 pm
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: What doesn't make sense to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddyGirl View Post
Yes, but...having said all that...even if Jesus really did say those words, one could read them as being SYMBOLIC. As I'm sure you know. They read symbolically to me and to many others. He did not clarify either way and for many, the natural translation is that he meant it as symbolic.



.
SUCH understandings are severely lacking FAITH; but your right many do choose to give these and a great many other bible teachings THEIR OWN spin, despite bible warnings not to do so.

THAT my friend is WHY GOD alone can make the JUST call's on who is and who s NOT going to be saved. GOD has NEVER asked for man's opinions; He permits them; but has NO obligation to accept them.

FINAL JUDGMENT WILL BE ON WHAT GOD HAS MADE POSSIBLE FOR EACH OF TO KNOW; NOT WHAT WE CHOOSE [FOR ANY REASON] TO ACCEPT. Amen.

God Bless you, best of luck with your book

Patrick
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  #62  
Old Apr 20, '17, 5:25 pm
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: What doesn't make sense to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddyGirl View Post
What can I say...except that these three reasons don't seem strong enough to exclude women from the priesthood.

He chose men that day, but that does not mean he mean it to be only men forever.
It was a different time when women were not allowed to do anything.

That something has been done for a long time one way is not enough reason to keep it that way. If that were true, women would not be able to vote or own property or be able to be doctors, lawyers...men would be slaves...we'd still think the world was flat...

As per above, I can't see how it's "God's plan" to exclude female people from the priesthood.

THANK YOU for all your hard work putting together replies to me, PJM!


.
Your entitled to your opinion and GOD to His. Think I'll stick with GOD"S

Blessings

Patrick
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  #63  
Old Apr 21, '17, 11:43 am
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: What doesn't make sense to you?

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Originally Posted by maryt777 View Post
i apologize. I meant inerrant not infallible.

I do not recall saying that everything is included in the bible.

Mary.
thanks!
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  #64  
Old Apr 21, '17, 3:05 pm
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Default Re: What doesn't make sense to you?

Quote:
I'm saying that the entire narrative of making people, making them flawed and with free will, then punishing them for their choices...and then offering to "save" them from that punishment by sending himself to earth as his son who, sorta, gives the info on what to do to be saved...but before clarifying a lot of it, is tortured and killed in order to save everyone (and yet, everyone still are not saved...even 2000 years later)...all of this does not make sense to me.
The whole set-up and god's thought-process, motives, and choices make no sense, IMO.
I think it would be illogical and/or unwise for a god to do all this...unless it was for their own entertainment/amusement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
The issue is not GOD; it's being created "in the image and likeness of God”, with a mind, intellect and freewill
God good and Perfect; and God can tolerate nothing less than perfection in His Divine Presence; so to MY way of thinking that gave God who in an absolute sense could not have chosen for example to make man as a perfect creature and thus predestination, and everyone is LITERALLY saved.
Quote:
Contrary to as you suggest man is NOT “flawed” BUT actually made PERFECT [able to know and choose good over evil.] OF COURSE God then IS morally obligated to punish evil and reward goodness; BUT GOD also makes choosing “good” the GREATER option of the two; going so far as to OFFER ALL sin forgiveness; through Sacramental Confession. …. So God goes WAY out of the way in His desire that ALL Souls be saved. 1: Tim 2: 3-5
Patrick...your answers stir up more things that don't make sense to me instead of clarifying the ones I've already mentioned.
If a god cannot tolerate anything less than perfect, why would he then make "perfect" people who disobey him...then punish them and cause much pain and torture...if everyone ends up saved in the end anyway?
What for?


Quote:
Evil exist because of man’s freewill {MEISM} choices; & is in opposition to goodness and therefore GOD, yet the possibility HAS to exist for man to be enable to freely bestow perfect love back to God.
Again, I'm not clear why you keep bringing "evil" into it.
And also, why do you say it has to exist. Why wouldn't people be able to give "perfect love" back to god without evil existing? Again, I don't see the sense in that.


Quote:
There is no ambiguity to what GOD demands for a soul to be saved. Here it is in summary form
1. Know, love, serve & OBEY God
2. Die without unconfessed; unforgiven MORTAL sins [1 Jn 1:8-9; 1 Jn 5:16-17 & Jn 20:19-23]
3. Practice WORKS of charity
4. TIME itself has NO effect on salvation, as it is MAN”S personal choices that determine salvation. Man was created with the potential to be perfect as well as to be “perfectly-evil.” Blame man, not God.
5. From a pragmatic perspective: GOD knew through His past experience with Lucifer [Satan] and later with Adam & Eve; all of whom WERE granted a perfect existence and blew it; that man, quite possibly to would vacillate between good and evil. Hence Christ and GRACE
So...how are people supposed to be saved if they do not know what a mortal sin is, and what they can do to make up for it? It doesn't make sense that a god would give a To-Do list of sins and salvation, and then be aware ahead of time that millions of people will never know these lists because they follow a different religion that they have been taught by their parents as the "one, true" religion.


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  #65  
Old Apr 21, '17, 3:39 pm
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Default Re: What doesn't make sense to you?

Quote:
It's reasonable to think that he chose 12 men that day because there were no women in front of him at that time in the group.
Or, he may have suspected that many stubborn men (like Paul!) probably would not listen to a woman...or that perhaps, it would be difficult and dangerous at that time for women to take on the tasks of an apostle (though Mary M proved otherwise; I think she traveled and preached after Jesus was crucified?)
But that was then and this is now. I think had he not been crucified and had more time, he would have included women in that role asap.
One could also argue that when Jesus told Mary M, "go tell them!' he is giving the green light for Mary and women to be priests/preachers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
1. Because with GOD there are no such things as luck [good or bad], no coincidences, no happenstances; everything is a result of Divine Providence. If its a good it is caused by GOD; if it is an evil it caused by man and permitted by GOD.
First, how do you know this is correct?
Second...if it is, then people should not be worried at all about sinning or if they find salvation...because it is all divine providence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
2. Historically GOD has always chosen just ONE MAN to lead:
Noah, Abram, Moses, the Judges,the Kings, the Prophets, leading right up to John the Baptist; who leads to Christ, who choose 12 MALES as His Apostles. It is NOTABLE that neither His Mother, or Mary Magdalena; BOTH highly regarded and loved, could have been, BUT were NOT selected.

Men are the main characters in most of the Judeo-Christian stories most likely because it was a patriarchal society.
It still does not mean it can't be different now, for the same reasons I mentioned earlier.

Mary M was very involved and traveled with the group, supported them, and was instrumental at the most dramatic, turning point moments.

RE Jesus' mother...there are many reasons why she may have not traveled with the group and be an apostle. She had a husband and other children at home to take care of. Or, she may have not wanted to. Remember the scene in the gospels where she sends the siblings out to fetch Jesus because he's talking "out of his mind"?


Quote:
[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one's private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.
But...groups of people did interpret it. And there was much debate for decades and/or centuries by the "early church" on how to interpret scripture and, indeed, which scripture to even include in the canon.


Quote:
Paul's comments on the Role of women, while sexist in OUR times; nevertheless articulate well the mind of the Church. Women are to have roles; even VERY significant and important ones; but Preaching is not one of them.
Except...Paul didn't specify women's roles in the church with those quotes. He simply said women should not ask questions or speak in church.
And, he said women should not "teach or exercise authority over a man."

But today, women do speak in the Catholic church and they do ask questions.
And women are also teachers (of men) and in many areas, are in authority positions over men.

The "mind of the Church" has adapted to society 20 centuries later in many ways, why not in this one?



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  #66  
Old Apr 21, '17, 3:46 pm
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: What doesn't make sense to you?

One thing that I have thought about regarding Catholic teaching (I wouldn't say it "doesn't make sense" since I know it does within Catholic doctrine) is the idea that one may lead a virtuous life but "slip up" at the very end by committing a mortal sin for which one does not seek repentance and thus be condemned to hell. Why wouldn't G-d consider the TOTALITY of a person's life rather than so severely penalize them for a mortal sin which stands in opposition to the good features of the rest of their life? Isn't this more just?

I suppose the flipside is also difficult for me to understand. That is, the Catholic belief that one may lead a terrible life but at the last moment repent and thus be saved. This, I admit, is more akin to Jewish teaching since we know that G-d makes "white as snow" all our sins if only we turn away from them. But still, I find it a bit disconcerting that a virtuous person for most of their life may wind up going to hell whereas a terrible person may ultimately be saved at the very last moment. I find this merciful in the second instance, but not so much either merciful or just in the first instance.
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  #67  
Old Apr 22, '17, 9:31 am
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Default Re: What doesn't make sense to you?

MB, that's not much different from your own Jewish faith is it? Don't you believe that a life of virtue can be undone by grave sin at the end?

Also, there is no such thing as "slipping up" and committing a mortal sin. There are 3 aspects or components necessary to commit one.
  • A grave matter
  • Full Knowledge that it is.
  • Willful commission
To commit a mortal sin you have to intend to do so.
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  #68  
Old Apr 22, '17, 10:17 am
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: What doesn't make sense to you?


REPLY TO POST #64

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddyGirl View Post
Patrick...your answers stir up more things that don't make sense to me instead of clarifying the ones I've already mentioned.
If a god cannot tolerate anything less than perfect, why would he then make "perfect" people who disobey him...then punish them and cause much pain and torture...if everyone ends up saved in the end anyway?
What for?
My friend, this too as previously addressed

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

Rom.2: 13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

John 3:5 “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

[THIS is the NORM, exceptions are conditionally possible]

God’s creation of humanity is “perfect” ONLY conditionally in the following sense
1. Man is Created in the image of our PERFECT GOD

2. In humanity because of the effects of Original sin of Adam & Eve; the “perfection” is influenced by man’s “natural propensity to sin”; [concupiscence] which has an equal off-setting factor: God’s grace. GOD commits Himself to OFFER “sufficient grace that everyone COULD choose salvation. It then is man’s freewill choice; applying correctly or incorrectly intellect, mind and freewill, to choose good or evil. Choosing evil destroys perfection.

3. As indicated in two prior post; humanity exist as the ONLY created-possibility ABLE to know, love and serve God. Isa 43: 7 &21; and only in freely choosing to do so, CAN conditionally fulfill his reason to exist, and attain his possible perfection. So God makes perfection possible while man CAN make perfection ALSO impossible by man’s; not God’s choice.

4. MAN’S “perfection” IS CONDITIONAL ON MAN’S OWN FREEWILL CHOICES.
Quote:
Again, I'm not clear why you keep bringing "evil" into it.
I am using the term “evil” here most often in an interchange for “sin”; the very cause of EVIL

Quote:
And also, why do you say it has to exist. Why wouldn't people be able to give "perfect love" back to god without evil existing? Again, I don't see the sense in that.
You’re asking the right questions; and I’m not sure I have the full answer for you? They Can [COULD} BUT THEY [not God] choose NOT too.

In an absolute sense evil and or sin need NOT exist; YET in a practical sense; because the POSSIBILITY for them exist; [concupiscence] they DO exist. Sin is a result of man’s freewill choices; NOT a desired or planned part of God’s Original design and schematic for man.

WHAT you’re seeing as a “design flaw” [GOD”S FAULT]; is an absolutely essential element of planned creation in-order for man’s perfection to be at least a possibility [love freely returned for love freely given.] …. It would be a very prudent idea for you to take these great questions to a local catholic priest; who is far better suited to express what I can only do vaguely.

Quote:
So...how are people supposed to be saved if they do not know what a mortal sin is, and what they can do to make up for it?
As the NORM, a mortal sin in-order for it to be a MORTAL sin MUST meet 3 requirements

1 It must be a serious matter

2 One MUST know that committing such an act WILL BE a Mortal sin BEFORE choosing to do it

3 Then one must FREELY choose to do this act anyway
For more infor SEE our Catechism: ….

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

NUMBERS 1849-1864

That said: there ARE actions that are always and every time gravely sinful; termed intrinsic evils. These crimes against God and often man, CAN and SHOULD be known by all humanity. Things like murder, abortion, adultery, serious theft, often salacious gossip, and the like are written on the minds & hearts of all humanity; and even without full knowledge of God ought to be known as sinful.

Pretending NOT to know what can and OUGHT to be known increases; not diminishes the gravity of a sin.

Quote:
It doesn't make sense that a god would give a To-Do list of sins and salvation, and then be aware ahead of time that millions of people will never know these lists because they follow a different religion that they have been taught by their parents as the "one, true" religion.
My friend you missed an IMPORTANT teaching from one of my previous replies:
GOD WILL PASS JUST JUDGMENT ON EACH OF US BASED NOT ON WHAT WE KNOW, DON’T KNOW, DENY OUR CHOOSE TO BELIEVE, RATHER IT WILL BE ON WHAT HE, GOD HAS MADE POSSIBLE FOR EACH OF US TO KNOW, ACCEPT, AND BELIEVE. This issue is termed: “culpability.”

In order for God to be GOD, He MUST be completely fair and just. And SO HE IS!
[/quote]

KNOW also my friend that sin darkens one’s understanding; and that GOD is on OUR side, so pray for right-understandings.

GBY

Patrick
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  #69  
Old Apr 22, '17, 10:27 am
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: What doesn't make sense to you?

REPLY TO POST 65

by PJM
1. Because with GOD there are no such things as luck [good or bad], no coincidences, no happenstances; everything is a result of Divine Providence. If its a good it is caused by GOD; if it is an evil it caused by man and permitted by GOD .end quote

Quote:
First, how do you know this is correct?
Because God can be proven to exist; the laws of motion for example and the fact that “good’ exist

Because GOD does exist; God is in charge

Quote:
Second...if it is, then people should not be worried at all about sinning or if they find salvation...because it is all divine providence.
No my friend, “Divine Providence” is God CAUSING something to happen [and He can only cause that which is “good”]. Further, as previously shared, Once GOD made the decision to create man in His Image [mind, intellect & freewill”]; then God in Divine Justice HAS to in an absolute sense permit man to exercise; that is to make use of these very gifts. Divine Justice prohibits GOD form giving a Gift and then arbitrary taking the same back.

So it is man’s freewill choice that brings sin into existence; and while God, as “ALL KNOWING” is aware of the choices man freely chooses; God can only influence man towards “good”, through grace; which is an OFFER to help; an offer to lead men in the “right” direction, not a command, predicated on man’s FREEWILL-choices.

God can forgive ALL sins, but never condone sin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM
2. Historically GOD has always chosen just ONE MAN to lead:
Noah, Abram, Moses, the Judges,the Kings, the Prophets, leading right up to John the Baptist; who leads to Christ, who choose 12 MALES as His Apostles. It is NOTABLE that neither His Mother, or Mary Magdalena; BOTH highly regarded and loved, could have been, BUT were NOT selected. end quote

Quote:
Men are the main characters in most of the Judeo-Christian stories most likely because it was a patriarchal society.

It still does not mean it can't be different now, for the same reasons I mentioned earlier.
Actually it does. God FREELY choose to create Adam before He created Eve, for reason that FIT is Divine and Perfect Will. …. As stated with GOD there are NO coincediences.

Quote:
Mary M was very involved and traveled with the group, supported them, and was instrumental at the most dramatic, turning point moments.

RE Jesus' mother...there are many reasons why she may have not traveled with the group and be an apostle. She had a husband and other children at home to take care of. Or, she may have not wanted to. Remember the scene in the gospels where she sends the siblings out to fetch Jesus because he's talking "out of his mind"?
If I may use the term ‘secondary” here? NOT meaning in any way inferior; GOD had and HAS a plan for both genders; and over time has used BOTH for MUCH good. Take for example; Mary His Mother. MOTHER OF GOD [literally]….. GOD could have chosen another way to enter into our world. The OT recounts multiple Angels who appeared as mortal men.

In very recent times we have the examples of Mother Theresa of Calcutta, and Mother Angelica [founder of EWTN]; so it’s not that women are being deprived of opportunities; or not attaining SIGNIFIANT good things; ONLY that God’s intended Roles for men and women ARE designed by God to be different BUT complementary. …. Just as a FAMILY’S head is intended by GOD to be the Father; and YES, society is doing all it can to screw this up, so too the mothers role is critically indispensable, and not at all secondary; just different. BUT all organization HAVE to have a HEAD.


Quote:
[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one's private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.end quote

Quote:
But...groups of people did interpret it. And there was much debate for decades and/or centuries by the "early church" on how to interpret scripture and, indeed, which scripture to even include in the canon.
There are near countless examples of “we can”; but “SHOULD WE” …. There’s that darn ol’ mind, intellect and freewill again

“MIGHT does NOT make right”

What people Did is evident; that they should NOT have is even more so

After 2,000 years there are 23 branches of the RCC, ALL WITH ONE SET OF FAITH BELIEFS

After 500 years there are thousands [and GROWING DAILY] DIFFERING Christian churches and sets of private - individual sets of faith beliefs….. HOW CAN THIS BE AS TRUTH CAN BE NOTHING OTHER THAN SINGULAR PER DEFINED ISSUE? …. Anything else is illogical, immoral [wrong]and unsupportable.


Quote:
Paul's comments on the Role of women, while sexist in OUR times; nevertheless articulate well the mind of the Church. Women are to have roles; even VERY significant and important ones; but Preaching is not one of them.

Quote:
Except...Paul didn't specify women's roles in the church with those quotes. He simply said women should not ask questions or speak in church.
And, he said women should not "teach or exercise authority over a man."

But today, women do speak in the Catholic Church and they do ask questions.
And women are also teachers (of men) and in many areas, are in authority positions over men.

The "mind of the Church" has adapted to society 20 centuries later in many ways, why not in this one?
CONTINUED ON NEXT POST
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  #70  
Old Apr 22, '17, 10:28 am
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: What doesn't make sense to you?

REPLY TO POST 365 CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

You’re ORIGINAL question was “WHY CAN”T WOMEN BE PRIEST?”
I gave first a summary reply which you found lacking; and then supplied St John Paul II’s INFALLIBLE Teaching document for your review.

My first reply was fully self- explained. Here it is again; it deals with the Most Holy Eucharist which as I previously explained and evidenced is the “Sum and Summary” of Catholic beliefs and therefore all of Christianity. …. CCC #1324

1 Because Jesus Christ is BOTH:

TRUE GOD & TRUE MAN possessing a perfect human nature & always His Perfect Divine Nature

2 Jesus choose to be born into humanity in MALE GENDER

3 It was Jesus in his Human nature that suffered the Passion and Rose again On Easter Sunday; NOW IN HIS GLORIFIED BODY, BLOOD, SOUL & Divinity

4 It was Jesus as God & man who Personally said, as attested to by FIVE different authors of the NT

“THIS IS MY BODY”

“[YOU] DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME”

5 Because Catholic & Orthodox Holy Communion ARE “Really, Truly, Substanually [the entire Jesus] BODY, Blood, Soul & Divinity

St John Paul in summary form gave the following reasons that ONLY a male gender person is ABLE [capable of] making that very SAME Jesus PRESENT through Transubstantiation.

1. Both Ordination & the Eucharist are Sacraments INSTITUTED by Jesus Christ; hence no other power on earth is able to overrule what GOD Ordained

2. Sacred Tradition: From ALL recorded time, GOD choose men [male gender] to be HIS Priest; and not even the Pope can overrule this Sacred Tradition; KNOWING that God has HIS reasons for such a decision

3. Because Jesus was MALE GENDER
BECAUSE Jesus proclaimed “THIS IS MY BODY”

BECAUSE Jesus Himself commanded “YOU”….”DO THIS IN COMMERATION OF ME”
4. IN AN ABSOLUTE SENSE THEN ONLY ANOTHER MALE-GENDER PERSON CAN [IS ABLE / EMPOWERED] TO MAKE JESUS CHRIST; TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN [NOW IN HIS GLORIFIED BODY] PRESENT IN HOLY COMMUNION. AMEN!

GOD IS NOT INTERESTED IN OUR OPINIONS, BUT VERY MUCH INTERESTED IN OUR SALVATION.

“Whenever something is good it does not depend on us getting our way, but on God getting His way, and whether we do God’s Will depends on us [humbly] loving God. Moreover to love God we must [actually] know God, [not just know OF God].” Bread of Life booklet January 9, 2016”[Mt 7:21]

So my friend, I am answering your questions; but you’re missing some of the absolutely critical points I am sharing

PRAYER is the answer. ASK GOD to help you.

Continued Blessings,
Patrick
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  #71  
Old Apr 22, '17, 10:51 am
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Default Re: What doesn't make sense to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
One thing that I have thought about regarding Catholic teaching (I wouldn't say it "doesn't make sense" since I know it does within Catholic doctrine) is the idea that one may lead a virtuous life but "slip up" at the very end by committing a mortal sin for which one does not seek repentance and thus be condemned to hell. Why wouldn't G-d consider the TOTALITY of a person's life rather than so severely penalize them for a mortal sin which stands in opposition to the good features of the rest of their life? Isn't this more just?
GREAT questions! THANKS
The short answer is that God HAS to be GOD:

"All good things perfected".... so we ask are being "fair" and "just" good things?.... OF COURSE they are, so we can know with certainty that God in an absolute sense; has to be; can only be both Fair and Just [Isaiah 55:6-10]

Here are components of that explanation:

1. God commits Himself to OFFER [which can be and often is denied by man or misapplied]; SUFFICIENT GRACE for everyone to merit their salvation..... So God does His part

2. With authority comes responsibility

By virtue of the fact that God has freely chosen to create humanity in His very Image; which is accomplished by gifting humanity ALONE, in all of creation; with a mind, intellect and FREEWILL; God who is and give perfect Love to us and expects the same perfect love in return be FREELY returned to Him.

Love to be perfect MUST be freely bestowed.

These GIFTS of mind, intellect and freewill exist in humanity alone [Isaiah 43 & & 21] are the reason for OUR existence and the very tools granted that we MIGHT rightly use and apply them.

The KEY word being "MIGHT", as in We can choose to know, love and serve God; and we CAN also choose to hate, despise and disobey God.

LIFE is a God TEST; not just a part of our life, but ALL of it, in sum and in total. From beginning to our end.

Sir.15: 17 "Before a man are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him"

So God fulfills His Part and expect US to fulfill ours. = Divine Justice!

Quote:
I suppose the flipside is also difficult for me to understand. That is, the Catholic belief that one may lead a terrible life but at the last moment repent and thus be saved. This, I admit, is more akin to Jewish teaching since we know that G-d makes "white as snow" all our sins if only we turn away from them. But still, I find it a bit disconcerting that a virtuous person for most of their life may wind up going to hell whereas a terrible person may ultimately be saved at the very last moment. I find this merciful in the second instance, but not so much either merciful or just in the first instance.
Again in brief; it is because God IS on OUR side

God's Mercy is Greater than His Justice

1Tim.2 Verses 3 to 5 "This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,"

Perhaps even more profound is this FACT

GOD WILL, BECAUSE GOD MUST PASS FINAL JUDGMENT UPON EACH OF US

NOT BASED ON WHAT WE CHOOSE TO ACCEPT, BELIEVE & LIVE

RATHER IT WILL BE ON WHAT HE, GOD, HAS MADE POSSIBLE FOR EACH OF US

TO KNOW, TO ACCEPT AND TO LIVE

Continued Blessings my friend,

Patrick
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  #72  
Old Apr 22, '17, 10:57 am
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: What doesn't make sense to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Church Militant View Post
MB, that's not much different from your own Jewish faith is it? Don't you believe that a life of virtue can be undone by grave sin at the end?

Also, there is no such thing as "slipping up" and committing a mortal sin. There are 3 aspects or components necessary to commit one.
  • A grave matter
  • Full Knowledge that it is.
  • Willful commission
To commit a mortal sin you have to intend to do so.
VERY TRUE but Not absolutely;

There ARE those actions that are sooooo evil that everyone CAN, Should and Ought to know that they ARE gravely sinful. Theologically termed "intrinsic evils"

Heb.8: 10 “This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer.31: 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people”

A few examples of this are

Murder
Abortion
Slander
Greed
[often] Gossip

God Bless you, Good post!

Patrick
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  #73  
Old Apr 22, '17, 2:36 pm
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acarlson acarlson is offline
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Default Re: What doesn't make sense to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
VERY TRUE but Not absolutely;

There ARE those actions that are sooooo evil that everyone CAN, Should and Ought to know that they ARE gravely sinful. Theologically termed "intrinsic evils"

Heb.8: 10 “This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer.31: 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people”

A few examples of this are

Murder
Abortion
Slander
Greed
[often] Gossip

God Bless you, Good post!

Patrick
Buuuut there's always the aspect of deliberate and complete consent. Which can be known only by the individual and God. Indeed, one CHOOSES to commit mortal sin. It's a necessity.
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  #74  
Old Apr 23, '17, 12:10 pm
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: What doesn't make sense to you?

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Originally Posted by acarlson View Post
Buuuut there's always the aspect of deliberate and complete consent. Which can be known only by the individual and God. Indeed, one CHOOSES to commit mortal sin. It's a necessity.

Intrinsic Evil
HTTP://CATHOLICITY.WIKIA.COM/WIKI/INTRINSIC_EVIL

“Intrinsic evil is the opposite of extrinsic evil: It is an act which is naturally (intrinsically) evil, because the act itself is absolutely contrary to reason, to nature, and to God.[1]Intrinsic evil can never be done, for it can never be good, because good can never be good and evil at the same time.[2] For example: A truth is true. What is true is good. A lie is an untrue or false statement made with the intent to deceive. The truth cannot be true (good) and false (evil) at the same time. A lie is never true but is always false, for it is intrisincally untrue and deceptive. Hence, a lie is an intrinsic evil”

Heb.8: 10 “This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer.31: 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people”


My friend, I do not mean to be argumentative; but please do yourself a favor and look up and read these three sites

[1] http://www.catechism.cc/articles/moral-object.htm

[2] http://stjoseph-marysville.org/faqnonnegotiables.html

[2] https://www.catholicparents.org/intrinsic-evil/

Then go Our Catechism and please read numbers

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

1853
2352
2357
2380
2271
2272
2322
2320
2324

Examples of Intrinsic Evil

Based on Church teachings, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Encyclicals of the Pope, and issue papers from the Office of the Doctrine of the Faith, the following concern actions that are intrinsically evil and must never be promoted by the law. This is not an exclusive list, but here for example only:

1. Abortion
2. Adultery
3. Arbitrary Imprisonment
4. Bodily Mutilation
5. Calumny
6. Embryonic Stem Cell Research
7. Euthanasia
8. Homosexual “Marriage”
9. Human Cloning
10. Injustice to Foreigners
11. Injustice to Orphans and Widows
12. Injustice Against the Wage-Earner
13. Lying
14. Masturbation
15. Mental Torture
16. Murder
17. Pedophilia Acts
18. Physical Torture
19. Polygamy
20. Pornography Production
21. Pornography Use
22. Prostitution
23. Racism
24. Rape
25. Sex with Animals
26. Sexual Abuse
27. Slavery
28. Sodomy
29. Usury
30. Using Artificial Contraception
31. War of Aggression

Reference Resources:

CCC = Catechism of the Catholic Church
CPL = Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, Doctrinal Notes on Some Questions Regarding the Participation of Catholics in Political Life
CRF = Pontifical Council for the Family, Charter of the Rights of the Family
EV = John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, (the Gospe1 of Life)
RHL = Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Instruction on Respect for Human Life in Its Origin and on the Dignity of Procreation
UHP = Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions between Homosexual Persons
WRHC = Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion, General Principles
Catholic Online – www.catholic.org END QUOTES
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  #75  
Old Apr 24, '17, 3:41 am
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Reuben J Reuben J is offline
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Default Re: What doesn't make sense to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
One thing that I have thought about regarding Catholic teaching (I wouldn't say it "doesn't make sense" since I know it does within Catholic doctrine) is the idea that one may lead a virtuous life but "slip up" at the very end by committing a mortal sin for which one does not seek repentance and thus be condemned to hell. Why wouldn't G-d consider the TOTALITY of a person's life rather than so severely penalize them for a mortal sin which stands in opposition to the good features of the rest of their life? Isn't this more just?

I suppose the flipside is also difficult for me to understand. That is, the Catholic belief that one may lead a terrible life but at the last moment repent and thus be saved. This, I admit, is more akin to Jewish teaching since we know that G-d makes "white as snow" all our sins if only we turn away from them. But still, I find it a bit disconcerting that a virtuous person for most of their life may wind up going to hell whereas a terrible person may ultimately be saved at the very last moment. I find this merciful in the second instance, but not so much either merciful or just in the first instance.
This is also difficult for Christians in general (not just Catholics) to accept because we see it from our human reasoning, not God.

It is about the love of God - and how He wants us to 'come back' to Him. That is what repentance is all about and which God wants of us - turning back to Him.

Thus Jesus tell about a parable of the worker who came at the eleventh and got the same pay at the end of the day as those who came in the early morning. He also says that the last can be first, and the first last.

It is His to decide as to how He pays the workers. It would be no use to Him if a worker came in the morning but some time during the day runs away with His property. His priority seems to be the one who work till the end of the day and work accordingly.

Quite different from us human masters as we usually pay by the hour.
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