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  #46  
Old Jun 9, '15, 8:26 pm
fhansen fhansen is online now
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Pallas Athene View Post
Death occurs when the body and the mind (which is the activity of the brain) ceases to function. It is the end of our conscious existence. Our body will decompose, and will be part again of the huge recycling of the chemical reality.

I was looking for God, and did not find him anywhere. We are separated form God in this existence. We cannot see, or hear, or experience God in any way, therefore we are cut off from God - is this what you mean when you speak of "spiritual death"? Besides, I do not need God to find happiness and peace in this world and neither do all the non-Christians. So this "spiritual death" is still a meaningless concept for me.

Of course God (if he exists) could easily remedy this deficiency, and he would be most welcome to do so. He should not be gun-shy about revealing his "love" to us, so we could all experience it - here and now. The usual cop-out that we would be "forced" to know him and thus we would not be "free" to disbelieve him is so dumb, that words are insufficient to describe it. We would be free to reject him, of course.
God can be known-He can reveal Himself to us. His presence surrounds us already but we fail to see it. We are not happy-no one is-compared to the happiness we're created for-humans are a relatively miserable bunch-and the quest for happiness is an ongoing one. We can set our sights high or low-I happened to set them high many years ago-beyond what the world offered-and God responded, I can't say why it does or should work that way but once a person knows the game-it's all over in a sense; it's very difficult to go back-because there's nothing much to go back to, nothing to compare.
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  #47  
Old Jun 9, '15, 8:55 pm
mikekle mikekle is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by openmind77 View Post
The sacrifice is not in the death since he already knew he was going to be resurrected.

The sacrifice is in the suffering, the torture, the humiliation he went through both before the crucifixion and while dying on the cross.

Jesus, the human, did actually feel the pain and suffering during this process.
Ive been reading thru some of these posts and it does bring up some good points, while others seem confusing, anyway, I do believe Jesus was here as a man, and was crucified, I also believe he did go thru some very brutal suffering, but according to the bible, this only went on for a day or 2, and then his human body was dead...Ive read some very brutal accounts of humans being tortured over long periods of time that were much worse than what Jesus went thru, so, Im not sure what this means, but it does make me view the death of Jesus in a bit of a different light.

Mainly, one of the posts in here, said something along the lines of 'what was the sacrifice if Jesus knew full well he wasnt really going to die, like saying "I will chop off my arm in a sacrifice for you today, knowing I will re-grow another the next day", that doesnt really seem like a real sacrifice to me.
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  #48  
Old Jun 10, '15, 2:25 am
hasantas hasantas is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Neofight View Post
God didn't have to become man; He chose to become man, and humanity did not "kill" God.

When God became man, the Word became flesh, but still retained His divinity.

Therefore, humanity, while responsible for taking the human life of the very human, Jesus, the divine (God) certainly was not killed, as proven by the resurrection and ascension.

Peace and all good!
I cannot exactly understand what that means "God became man"!

God does not become man but if He did so,

Why did He do such thing! Do not God can see and feel what human nature feel and suffer without being human? So do you bound God's attributes?

If God die and suffer then how can it be my creator? And how can he save me but he cannot save Himself?

To forgive me so God kill Himself ... That does not sound rational.

God is eternal and infinite. If God became man and bound to matter and time so how it can be reconcile with God's eternal essence?

Death is the departing soul from body. So if God became man and died later so God had to settle in body. If God incarnated in the body so God have to be bound to physical laws which conflicts with eternal attributes!
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  #49  
Old Jun 10, '15, 4:08 am
fhansen fhansen is online now
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by hasantas View Post
I cannot exactly understand what that means "God became man"!

God does not become man but if He did so,

Why did He do such thing! Do not God can see and feel what human nature feel and suffer without being human? So do you bound God's attributes?
It wasn't for His sake-it's for ours, so that we know, in no uncertain terms , that God knows and cares about who we are, that He isn't beneath living as He created us to live, including the suffering that we all inevitably endure to one degree or another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hasantas View Post
If God die and suffer then how can it be my creator? And how can he save me but he cannot save Himself?
He did save Himself-that's the point-He just came down and showed us-proved to us-eternal life and the pathway there. We follow Him through death unto life.
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Originally Posted by hasantas View Post
To forgive me so God kill Himself ... That does not sound rational.
To show me that He already forgives -to show me how much He loves- that He would even suffer and die an agonizing death if that's what it takes to show me that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hasantas View Post
God is eternal and infinite. If God became man and bound to matter and time so how it can be reconcile with God's eternal essence?

Death is the departing soul from body. So if God became man and died later so God had to settle in body. If God incarnated in the body so God have to be bound to physical laws which conflicts with eternal attributes!
Nothing's impossible for God. He can certainly stoop lower; He can certainly enter into His own creation, the work of His hands, if He desires. God sanctified His creation, in a way, by becoming part of it, to show just how initmately connected to it all that He is.
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  #50  
Old Jun 10, '15, 7:22 am
Pallas Athene Pallas Athene is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by fhansen View Post
God can be known-He can reveal Himself to us.
But he does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhansen View Post
His presence surrounds us already but we fail to see it.
This reminds me of a sign in a bookstore, which said: "Those who do not read are not better off than those who cannot read". If his presence cannot be felt, or seen or experienced, then what use is this assumed "presence"?

You can't have it both ways. If God cannot be experienced then we are separated from God. Are we in the state of "spiritual death" due to the lack the ability to experience God? I am afraid this "spiritual death" simply makes no sense at all.
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  #51  
Old Jun 10, '15, 7:49 am
fhansen fhansen is online now
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Pallas Athene View Post
But he does not.
Yes, He does.
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Originally Posted by Pallas Athene View Post
This reminds me of a sign in a bookstore, which said: "Those who do not read are not better off than those who cannot read". If his presence cannot be felt, or seen or experienced, then what use is this assumed "presence"?
To some it seems His presence is thick in ordinary things. For myself, it's been thicker than thick at times when He's chosen to reveal Himself-and that's not a particularly easy event to explain or describe. It's not even possible, in fact. But, in general terms, there's much more to this life than meets the eye-as we might reasonably assume just based on the sheer complexity of this universe, most obvious, perhaps, in life, in living beings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallas Athene View Post
You can't have it both ways. If God cannot be experienced then we are separated from God. Are we in the state of "spiritual death" due to the lack the ability to experience God? I am afraid this "spiritual death" simply makes no sense at all.
It makes no sense if God doesn't exist. Otherwise, He can be the part that's missing. If you sense that there's nothing missing-that yourself and the world you live in are perfectly as they should be, then you won't seek after any higher reality. In any case, yes-this life continues to be a spiritual death to us all to one degree or the other, with one foot in heaven, with all the goodness we experience in this life, and one foot in hell, with the evil: sin, pain, suffering, and death that we all inevitably experience. The church, with the bible, teaches that in this life we see dimly, as through an obscure mirror; in the next life we see clearly, "face to face". God can give powerful glimpses of that next vision now. But until that time then we sort of struggle with whether or not we'll be His hands or the devil's, or something in between; the game is set up so that we play God here. And unless the master's gone the game can't be played that way.
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  #52  
Old Jun 10, '15, 8:54 am
Servant19 Servant19 is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by fhansen View Post
Yes, He does.

To some it seems His presence is thick in ordinary things. For myself, it's been thicker than thick at times when He's chosen to reveal Himself-and that's not a particularly easy event to explain or describe. It's not even possible, in fact. But, in general terms, there's much more to this life than meets the eye-as we might reasonably assume just based on the sheer complexity of this universe, most obvious, perhaps, in life, in living beings.

It makes no sense if God doesn't exist. Otherwise, He can be the part that's missing. If you sense that there's nothing missing-that yourself and the world you live in are perfectly as they should be, then you won't seek after any higher reality. In any case, yes-this life continues to be a spiritual death to us all to one degree or the other, with one foot in heaven, with all the goodness we experience in this life, and one foot in hell, with the evil: sin, pain, suffering, and death that we all inevitably experience. The church, with the bible, teaches that in this life we see dimly, as through an obscure mirror; in the next life we see clearly, "face to face". God can give powerful glimpses of that next vision now. But until that time then we sort of struggle with whether or not we'll be His hands or the devil's, or something in between; the game is set up so that we play God here. And unless the master's gone the game can't be played that way.
Saying that a human being can know God is against a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church, dear friend

.
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  #53  
Old Jun 10, '15, 9:00 am
Ignatius Ignatius is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by hasantas View Post
I cannot exactly understand what that means "God became man"!
The Christian belief is that God is omnipotent! You, a human being, can't limit God and say 'you can't do that'. He can, and in fact did, become man and dwelt upon this Earth. He did this out of love for us. You see we, as mere creatures, cannot do anything to get to Him. But because He is All Merciful, He did this to allow us to be closer to Him.
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  #54  
Old Jun 10, '15, 10:36 am
fhansen fhansen is online now
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Servant19 View Post
Saying that a human being can know God is against a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church, dear friend

.
It's most certainly not against a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church, dear friend . In fact, the very purpose of man's existence is to come to know God
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  #55  
Old Jun 10, '15, 11:56 am
hasantas hasantas is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Ignatius View Post
The Christian belief is that God is omnipotent! You, a human being, can't limit God and say 'you can't do that'. He can, and in fact did, become man and dwelt upon this Earth. He did this out of love for us. You see we, as mere creatures, cannot do anything to get to Him. But because He is All Merciful, He did this to allow us to be closer to Him.
God is omnipotent. I think that is not just Christian belief!

God can do everything and that is true.

So do God behave cruelly? But if he wish He can do!

Do god can be a tree or a car? If He wish He can!

Can God make Himself blind or deaf or powerless? If not but God can do what ever wish!

Do God can get marry? If He do not marry so isn't God omnipotent?

.....

......

You see it is not use to say if God wish He can do everything.

For instance I ask Do God can make Himself blind and deaf or powerless. If you say no then you claim that God cannot do what ever He wish. If you you say yes then there will be many conflicts in that. If we assume God to be blind or powerless absolutely for very very very short time then God is not God any more for a time. Then what will happen in universe during that time? And you cannot say that God can be both omnipotent and powerless at the same time. That is very unreasonable

So being a man is kind of such thing. God create man and that is more importand and big than being man. Creating is superior than being created. God create so God do not to being created. That is technical but not moraly.
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  #56  
Old Jun 10, '15, 12:41 pm
Ignatius Ignatius is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Ignatius View Post
The Christian belief is that God is omnipotent! You, a human being, can't limit God and say 'you can't do that'. He can, and in fact did, become man and dwelt upon this Earth. He did this out of love for us. You see we, as mere creatures, cannot do anything to get to Him. But because He is All Merciful, He did this to allow us to be closer to Him.
God is omnipotent. I think that is not just Christian belief!

God can do everything and that is true.

God create man and that is more important and big than being man.
Yes, Christians, Muslims and Hebrews all know that God is omnipotent.
God is above all of His creation but He chose to enter into His creation. Why? Because He is All Merciful. He mercifully allows us, His creation, to be closer to Him.

Think about it like this. An artist can create a painting. He is higher than the painting. Some artists have chosen to paint themselves into their paintings. That does not stop them from being the artistic creator of the painting, they are still at the same time creating the painting and in the painting. It is because they are greater than their painting that they can to do that. The painting cannot bring the creator into itself, but the creator can paint himself into His painting precisely because it is his creation.
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  #57  
Old Jun 10, '15, 6:31 pm
Servant19 Servant19 is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by fhansen View Post
It's most certainly not against a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church, dear friend . In fact, the very purpose of man's existence is to come to know God
Maybe I am mistaken:

http://www.strobertbellarmine.net/wi...annell_09.html
Quote:
A Manual Of Catholic Theology, Based On Scheeben's “Dogmatik”

1906

CHAPTER II

THE ESSENCE AND ATTRIBUTES OF GOD, CONSIDERED GENERALLY.

SECT. 60.—Fundamental conception of God's Essence and Nature.

WE have now to inquire whether, among our conceptions of God, there is some one which may be considered as the foundation of all the others.

I. A direct and intuitive representation of the Divine Substance [Essence] as It is in Itself, is manifestly impossible. Our knowledge of God is restricted to His attributes which we see reflected in creatures, and which we refer to the Divine Substance; but the Substance itself we have no power to apprehend..

......and again, Saint Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335 – c. 395) explained this well in his Sermons on the Beatitudes (Sermon 6):

Quote:
"...The Divine Nature, whatever It may be in Itself, surpasses every mental concept. For It is altogether inaccessible to reasoning and conjecture, nor has there been found any human faculty capable of perceiving the incomprehensible; for we cannot devise a means of understanding inconceivable things. Therefore, the great Apostle calls His ways unsearchable, meaning by this that the way that leads to knowledge of the Divine Essence is inaccessible to thought. That is to say, none of those who have passed through life before us has made known to the intelligence so much as a trace by which might be known what is above knowledge.
You may also wish to look at the list of de fide teachings here:

http://www.catholictreasury.info/trinity.php

....and you will see that it is a de fide teaching that knowledge of God is inaccessible to even the "blessed in Heaven"


Having said all this "coming to know God" (as you stated in your post above), is different to KNOWING God. Coming to know God can be done through His attributes, but that is like saying that one knows all about the sun simply to learning about light and heat.....


.

.
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  #58  
Old Jun 10, '15, 11:03 pm
hasantas hasantas is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by Ignatius View Post
Yes, Christians, Muslims and Hebrews all know that God is omnipotent.
God is above all of His creation but He chose to enter into His creation. Why? Because He is All Merciful. He mercifully allows us, His creation, to be closer to Him.

Think about it like this. An artist can create a painting. He is higher than the painting. Some artists have chosen to paint themselves into their paintings. That does not stop them from being the artistic creator of the painting, they are still at the same time creating the painting and in the painting. It is because they are greater than their painting that they can to do that. The painting cannot bring the creator into itself, but the creator can paint himself into His painting precisely because it is his creation.
The painting does not hold the attributes of artist any more. The painting is just image but there is nothing inside. So can the painting both be a painting and an artist?

And you also you do not answer the conflicts which I pointed.
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  #59  
Old Jun 11, '15, 12:37 am
hasantas hasantas is offline
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by fhansen View Post
In a sense, yes. The light that came into the world was God, that's Who Jesus revealed, because that's Who Jesus is- and man preferred darkness.
35-The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. - Luke 1:35

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. Matthew 1: 18

9- There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. - John 1: 9

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1: 12


Child(Jesus) is called Son of God because Holy Spirit come upon Mary. So Jesus is not Son of God and Jesus is not God but from God. That term "Son of God" is metaphorical. That is exactly what Qur'an teachs.

Who accept The Light(Jesus who enlighten world through disciplines and faith) is Son of God. So I am Son of God too but I am not God. Hâ Shâ!(Avoid from blasphemous)
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  #60  
Old Jun 11, '15, 5:11 am
fhansen fhansen is online now
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Default Re: If God became man....

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Originally Posted by hasantas View Post
35-The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. - Luke 1:35

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. Matthew 1: 18

9- There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. - John 1: 9

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1: 12


Child(Jesus) is called Son of God because Holy Spirit come upon Mary. So Jesus is not Son of God and Jesus is not God but from God. That term "Son of God" is metaphorical. That is exactly what Qur'an teachs.

Who accept The Light(Jesus who enlighten world through disciplines and faith) is Son of God. So I am Son of God too but I am not God. Hâ Shâ!(Avoid from blasphemous)
Thank you for your personal misinterpretation of Scripture.
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