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  #61  
Old May 24, '17, 6:04 am
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Peter J Peter J is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

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Originally Posted by lynnvinc View Post
This sort of reminds me of prison culture where a number of presumably heterosexual males engage in homosexual activity, I think with younger men who are somewhat effeminate due to their young age. That is what is available to them.
I was thinking something along those lines. Partly because yesterday I read something referring to the reverse -- some others here may have read it too -- a phrase like "heterosexual enough to have sex with a woman". I won't get into the context it was in yesterday, but that phrase and the like always kind of catch my attention ... I'm no expert and don't even know a huge number of gay men, but I doubt very many are not "heterosexual enough to have sex with a woman" (if we want to call it that). Just as conversely I doubt there are many heterosexual men who would be incapable of having sex with another man.
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  #62  
Old May 24, '17, 6:38 am
lynnvinc lynnvinc is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

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Originally Posted by Peter J View Post
I was thinking something along those lines. Partly because yesterday I read something referring to the reverse -- some others here may have read it too -- a phrase like "heterosexual enough to have sex with a woman". I won't get into the context it was in yesterday, but that phrase and the like always kind of catch my attention ... I'm no expert and don't even know a huge number of gay men, but I doubt very many are not "heterosexual enough to have sex with a woman" (if we want to call it that). Just as conversely I doubt there are many heterosexual men who would be incapable of having sex with another man.
Back in the day when it was highly unacceptable to be gay, many gay men would marry women, and apparently had regular relations with their wives. Then when it became more acceptable to be gay in the late 1960s, many divorced their wives and took up with men. I had a friend married to such a man and she was both extremely surprised and devastated when he divorced her to shift to a gay lifestyle. She had had no inkling that he was gay.

Also there was a sociological study done in the late 60s, which is used as a classic example of ethics violation (re deception used to get the info), "Tearoom trade: a study of homosexual encounters in public places." It is about heterosexual married men who went to a public restroom for homosexual encounters. The researcher posed as a lookout for them, got their car license info, had a police friend look up their addresses, then later in a different disguise went to their homes as a salesperson and saw they were married, living regular lives. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tearoo...ote-ttmenace-1

Now having said that, I do know that our world is increasingly polluted by hormone-disrupters in our water, food, and general environment.....some which have been shown to make same sex birds nest together producing infertile eggs. There are some biological aspects to homosexuality, but for humans I think a lot of it if not most of it is cultural (learned).

A female colleague I had at a university had been beaten and mistreated by her father, then later by her husband, whom she divorced. One day she wandered into a church that seemed very warm and friendly. It turned out to be a church for gay people (or accepting of gay people). She eventually became gay. But there was always something very dark, dreary, and sad about her. Sad story. We need to treat people well.
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  #63  
Old May 24, '17, 8:21 am
SyroMalankara SyroMalankara is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

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Originally Posted by Peter J View Post
I was thinking something along those lines. Partly because yesterday I read something referring to the reverse -- some others here may have read it too -- a phrase like "heterosexual enough to have sex with a woman". I won't get into the context it was in yesterday, but that phrase and the like always kind of catch my attention ... I'm no expert and don't even know a huge number of gay men, but I doubt very many are not "heterosexual enough to have sex with a woman" (if we want to call it that). Just as conversely I doubt there are many heterosexual men who would be incapable of having sex with another man.
I don't know a huge number of gay men, but I've been friends with both gay men and women from high school to today -- all of them had at some point dated those of the opposite sex and been able to be in relations with them for the time being (I'm not aware, nor do I want to know about intimate details). However, I don't know ANY heterosexual men that are capable of willingly having sex with another man -- other than prison rape or assault being done, I don't have the mental ability to be aroused in the physical vicinity of other heterosexual men, let alone gay men.
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  #64  
Old May 24, '17, 9:03 am
ThundersnowIV ThundersnowIV is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

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Originally Posted by DaddyGirl View Post
Yes. IMO it is confirmation bias.
Many/most of these priests who abused do not have attraction to adult males or adult females. Hence, pedophilia.
I've posted the above stats many times here on CAF but many do not pay attention to them. I assume they want to blame much of the abuse on homosexuality but...sorry, Charlie, it cannot be done.


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  #65  
Old May 26, '17, 3:04 am
Vic Taltrees UK Vic Taltrees UK is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

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Originally Posted by ToeInTheWater View Post
...

It does seem that the "SSA" term is unique to Christians in the US, though. The Pope himself has spoken about "gay people" and the need to be compassionate to them.
There are people who have known an SSA who are not "gay".

The lobby tells them that they are, they don't tell themselves that.

Who the Pope was talking about was who the Pope was talking about. He can choose who he is talking about, at any time.
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  #66  
Old May 26, '17, 1:46 pm
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Peter J Peter J is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

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Originally Posted by Vic Taltrees UK View Post
There are people who have known an SSA who are not "gay".

The lobby tells them that they are, they don't tell themselves that.
One would hope that an intelligent and informed person would never claim that every single person who is attracted to the same gender is gay, nor that every single person who is attracted to the opposite gender is straight.
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  #67  
Old May 29, '17, 4:58 pm
Shining_star86 Shining_star86 is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

Pedophilia, rape, etc... none of it has anything to do with sex at all. It seems to me some of you guys are simply trying to make the horrific crimes more palatable by placing blame on the wrong people. This is EXACTLY like anti-Catholics blaming the sexual abuse on the required celibacy of priests. If a person is going to rape, they will rape regardless of any laws or requirements in place. If a priest is going to have consensual sex even after taking vows, then he will, regardless of the sinfulness.

Someone being homosexual does not in any way make them more "inclined" to rape than someone being a heterosexual man.

This is about sick individuals who actively seek out positions of power and authority that practically no one in the Church would question, and positions that will allow them ample time around easy targets.

None of it has to do with sex, and it's rather shameful to assume so.
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  #68  
Old May 29, '17, 5:04 pm
Shining_star86 Shining_star86 is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

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Originally Posted by billsannie View Post
It's pretty well documented that there a significantly larger proportion of gay men in the priesthood than in society as a whole. So there is a larger chance that a priest who abuses a child will be a homosexual. But that doesn't prove any connection between being gay and abusing children. As has been mentioned many times here, most psychologists find no connection.

Some do, however, find a real connection between sexual abuse of younger persons and sexual immaturity. (And of course, being in a position of power is in the mix as well.) So perhaps that's what seminaries should be screening for. Don't ask me how, though.
A large proportion of gay men in the priesthood makes sense because, as I've read, homosexual attraction is not what is sinful, it's the acting out of that is sinful. If these men know they are homosexual, and they are trying to live a holy life, then it would make sense that they would seek the priesthood. What else could they do and still live a good, Catholic life? A heterosexual man is free to marry without sin or join the priesthood. So that makes perfect sense to me.

But just as you said, that does not mean homosexuality = rapist by any means.
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  #69  
Old Aug 3, '17, 5:35 pm
Buddyroe Buddyroe is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic Answers Live" spreading misinformation about sexual abuse and the John Jay Report?

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Originally Posted by Gorgias View Post
So, if you want to get precise and rather technical, I think you'd categorize the problem into three general groups: pedophilia (sexual preference for pre-pubescent children), hebephilia (sexual preference for pubescent children), and ephebophilia (sexual preference for post-pubescent children).

It's important to note that the ways these terms are used in casual conversation tends to differ from their rather precise, technical meanings.

If you graph the numbers that you've cited, you'll see that it's roughly a bell curve, with the mean at 12.5; it's somewhat skewed, with higher numbers of incidences in the right side of the curve than in the left side. In particular, the highest numbers are found in the 12-15 year old range.

That fits with the definition of hebephilia, which is defined as attraction to pubescent children (typically, 11-14 years old and beginning to display development of primary and secondary sex characteristics).

The narrative that I've heard asserts that the victims were targeted because they were in the course of development of sex characteristics. That would tend to blunt the argument for 'pedophilia.' If, in attempting to make that argument, some used the term 'ephebophilia' rather than the seemingly more accurate 'hebephilia', then I would say that you make a good point. If, however, you're claiming that, since it wasn't ephebophilia, therefore it was pedophilia, then I'd say you're misrepresenting the data.



The issue isn't whether they were fully mature, I'd say, but that they were in the process of maturing -- that is, beginning to display adult characteristics. Regardless where they were in their development, however, it was a horrible, damaging, sinful crime.

The issue isn't what type of "X"ophilia or the nuances thereof, the issue is fornication in the light of a vow of celibacy. I am not arguing against that vow, however, authorities (clergy and laymen) in the parish/diocese need to deal more quickly and decisively with these vow breakers for the honor of Lord Jesus, for His Word and to regain desperately needed trust in those who chose their vocation and are faithfully keeping their vows.
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  #70  
Old Aug 4, '17, 11:32 am
Whalljim Whalljim is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Answers Live - John Jay Report

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Originally Posted by po18guy View Post
We err if we try to reduce this to a simply human, legal or psychological problem. Its genesis is in the spiritual realm.
The people that did this are sick, in many, many ways. I don't believe that you could just 'screen out gays' and that this would have gone away. Because from what I've read this isn't that; its a mental disorder that causes them to prey on kids. Often times they've been victims.

That all was bad enough. What makes me nail spitting angry was the transfer of these priests to new hunting grounds WITHOUT letting the new places know.

Sure, I get it, they thought they could cure pedophilia. They know now they can't. But if I was a parent and I found out that my son had been victimized by a serial victimizer and I wasn't given fair warning I'd want to pound the bishop involved. Hard.

I love the Church. I believe it is truly the Church founded by Christ.

The Church needs to get out of this. If a priest is accused, fine. Hands off. Suspend the guy and hand the matter over to the cops to investigate. Period. Be utterly transparent to your flock. If he's found innocent, yay! If he's guilty, then jail time.

Err on the side of protecting the children.
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  #71  
Old Aug 4, '17, 11:46 am
ToeInTheWater ToeInTheWater is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Answers Live - John Jay Report

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Originally Posted by Whalljim View Post
That all was bad enough. What makes me nail spitting angry was the transfer of these priests to new hunting grounds WITHOUT letting the new places know.

Sure, I get it, they thought they could cure pedophilia. They know now they can't. But if I was a parent and I found out that my son had been victimized by a serial victimizer and I wasn't given fair warning I'd want to pound the bishop involved. Hard.
I agree with you but to be fair it is not only Catholics who used the concept of "forgiving sinners" to justify putting children at risk of abuse.

Josh Duggar is expecting his 5th child. Of course his crimes occurred long ago and can no longer be prosecuted. However many Duggar fans find no problem at all with him having access to potential future victims. Instead they praise his wife Anna for standing by him as a "model Christian wife" and example of truly living out the words of the Bible, and use the "how dare you judge him, you are a sinner too" argument when anyone dares to express concern about the situation.

For his children's sake, and his own, I do hope Josh Duggar has indeed repented of his sins and will never touch a minor sexually ever again. But I am not at all blasé about the chances that he will eventually re-offend.
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  #72  
Old Aug 4, '17, 11:48 am
MaryT777 MaryT777 is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Answers Live - John Jay Report

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Originally Posted by ToeInTheWater View Post
I agree with you but to be fair it is not only Catholics who used the concept of "forgiving sinners" to justify putting children at risk of abuse.

Josh Duggar is expecting his 5th child. Of course his crimes occurred long ago and can no longer be prosecuted. However many Duggar fans find no problem at all with him having access to potential future victims. Instead they praise his wife Anna for standing by him as a "model Christian wife" and example of truly living out the words of the Bible, and use the "how dare you judge him, you are a sinner too" argument when anyone dares to express concern about the situation.

For his children's sake, and his own, I do hope Josh Duggar has indeed repented of his sins and will never touch a minor sexually ever again. But I am not at all blasé about the chances that he will eventually re-offend.
Well said.
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  #73  
Old Aug 7, '17, 6:54 pm
ToeInTheWater ToeInTheWater is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Answers Live - John Jay Report

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Well said.
Okay, so where Mr. Staples is concerned, I did listen to an archived CAL from April 6, 2017 and he did make a point that "for the vast majority of the cases it wasn't pedophilia, it was ephebophilia" and said this as if it was obvious that a priest having sex with a post-pubertal teenager was not as bad as one having sex with a pre-pubescent child.

He then went on to say that "actual pedophiles" were really sick people who weren't just afflicted with lust but were motivated by wanting power over the victims.

However it seems in most of these cases the priests involved DID have power over the victims. Just because they were post-pubertal doesn't mean they weren't abused and were equal partners in sins of lust alone.

Of course Mr. Staples didn't actually go that far, and his caller didn't challenge him. But his "it wasn't pedophilia it was ephebophilia" defense did strike pretty close to a "so obviously, the victims were old enough to consent and weren't really victims" defense that, well, tends to set one up for charges of victim-blaming.
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