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  #16  
Old Mar 20, '17, 10:39 pm
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by Ginny89 View Post
Did you admire the previous popes who started this little 'tradition', like, say, St. John Paul II?

Which "tradition" do you mean?

I didn't really know much about Pope John Paul II at the time he was pope. But I heard people saying later on that he was a very smart, strong man. And when I saw his personal letters that were published last year, I admired much of what he said from the heart in them.

Did you admire him?


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  #17  
Old Mar 20, '17, 10:43 pm
Ginny89 Ginny89 is offline
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by DaddyGirl View Post
Which "tradition" do you mean?

I didn't really know much about Pope John Paul II at the time he was pope. But I heard people saying later on that he was a very smart, strong man. And when I saw his personal letters that were published last year, I admired much of what he said from the heart in them.

Did you admire him?


.
Admire? I revered the man. He was a living saint. And almost solely responsible for my becoming Catholic.

The tradition I was speaking about was that of popes apologizing for bad things Catholics have done.
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  #18  
Old Mar 21, '17, 5:48 am
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by Ginny89 View Post
Admire? I revered the man. He was a living saint. And almost solely responsible for my becoming Catholic.

The tradition I was speaking about was that of popes apologizing for bad things Catholics have done.
God bless John Paul II.

What I think is missing from Vatican apologies on behalf of those Catholics involved in the Rwandan slaughter, or indeed with the abuse of children is an intelligent articulation of why the Catholic culture was not strong enough in those places to overcome the evil that was committed.

What is the evil that defeated the Catholic culture in these places and how can we insure a strong Catholic culture in the future that holds sway within the church and defeats an evil that is so opposite to our faith?
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  #19  
Old Mar 21, '17, 6:19 am
friardchips friardchips is offline
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by SuperLuigi View Post
Indeed!

It sounds like the Rwandan government is now willing to look ahead to a future with better relations.
I think this is the case. A country to pray for.
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  #20  
Old Mar 21, '17, 6:38 am
friardchips friardchips is offline
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by twf View Post
I imagine that the Holy Father is indeed a humble man. That being said, these sorts of public apologies have been the norm for the last few popes. In fact, I would say they are expected...and the absolutely bare minimum that should be expected when Church leaders have been involved in horrendous crimes.
I think the point carries on from what po18guy said in a previous post.

The Church herself is Holy Mother Church, and so therefore, cannot be called anything but holy. The Church is guided by Christ's own Spirit. The Church has members making up the body of the Church, who make mistakes or act out of accordance with who/what the Church is. The sins of some, everybody, in fact, within the Church, on earth, affects not only those in their immediate surroundings but can cause destruction to the whole visible body, because one part of a body affects other parts of the body, spiritually, though the sins do not affect the mystical/supernatural foundations, or guiding Spirit, of the Church in Heaven e.g:- vice-versa, graces flowing from the offerings of one Church member in one area might not just affect positively, the person being prayed for, but grace can affect people the world over. So it is like a chain of events, on a supernatural/spiritual level.

The actions of those within the Church, as supposed representatives of Christ, can also negatively affect the whole world, because of consequential trust issues spilling over from collateral damage and lasting trauma.

So if Pope Francis is asking for apologies on behalf of the Church, He means the visible Church on earth, who maybe did not do enough (I offer no comment here as I don't know enough about it), and the members who directly acted contrary to whom the Spirit of the Church, as a mystical embodiment, stands for i.e.:- Christ.

I think this is correct, anyway. Either way, Pope Francis knows what he is saying and what he is doing.

It also has to be said, that Pope Francis is hardly going to stand there trying to explain an apology in what could only be seen as pedantic terms - the spiritual inner workings of the Church - when forming an apology in a holy act of humility. He keeps it simple and straightforward so everyone can understand. Exactly, what an apology ought to be. Such examples of humility can bring people closer to God.
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  #21  
Old Mar 21, '17, 8:52 am
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by Ginny89 View Post
Admire? I revered the man. He was a living saint. And almost solely responsible for my becoming Catholic.

The tradition I was speaking about was that of popes apologizing for bad things Catholics have done.
A living saint? Well, that's something. I guess as far as what I'd consider a saint, I'd say the current pope is a "living saint" as well for all that he is doing.

I didn't realize the apologizing was a tradition.
I think it was very inspiring and healing for Pope JP to make the apologies he did: To the Jews, women, Galileo...to those hurt during the Inquisition, Crusades...
It seems he apologized not only for "bad things" Catholics have done, but also what he feels the church condoned or ignored in the past.

I just looked at a list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...e_John_Paul_II

I think it's a good "tradition" for anyone to do, especially leaders of countries and religions. As I said above, it promotes healing all around.


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  #22  
Old Mar 21, '17, 9:12 am
Ginny89 Ginny89 is offline
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by DaddyGirl View Post
A living saint? Well, that's something. I guess as far as what I'd consider a saint, I'd say the current pope is a "living saint" as well for all that he is doing.

I didn't realize the apologizing was a tradition.
I think it was very inspiring and healing for Pope JP to make the apologies he did: To the Jews, women, Galileo...to those hurt during the Inquisition, Crusades...
It seems he apologized not only for "bad things" Catholics have done, but also what he feels the church condoned or ignored in the past.

I just looked at a list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...e_John_Paul_II

I think it's a good "tradition" for anyone to do, especially leaders of countries and religions. As I said above, it promotes healing all around.


.
My goodness. Pope JPII apologized to women? Is the church responsible for that too? C'mon JP, old boy, really? Sigh. Next we'll be asking Pope Francis to apologize for the thousands of years of human spanking of children, and he just might agree to do it too!
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  #23  
Old Mar 21, '17, 9:33 am
friardchips friardchips is offline
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by DaddyGirl View Post
A living saint? Well, that's something. I guess as far as what I'd consider a saint, I'd say the current pope is a "living saint" as well for all that he is doing.

I didn't realize the apologizing was a tradition.
I think it was very inspiring and healing for Pope JP to make the apologies he did: To the Jews, women, Galileo...to those hurt during the Inquisition, Crusades...
It seems he apologized not only for "bad things" Catholics have done, but also what he feels the church condoned or ignored in the past.

I just looked at a list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...e_John_Paul_II

I think it's a good "tradition" for anyone to do, especially leaders of countries and religions. As I said above, it promotes healing all around.

.
Even better, when the leaders actually mean it, rather than it just being a diplomatic decision, because then apologies can genuinely bring healing. And yet, "promotion" is a good start, as it makes for a more compassionate co-existence. I suppose for a leader of a country to apologise, this must take some prior deliberation. The thing about Pope Francis is that we know he means it with sincerity and integrity, when he makes a public apology.
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  #24  
Old Mar 21, '17, 12:03 pm
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by abucs View Post
God bless John Paul II.

What I think is missing from Vatican apologies on behalf of those Catholics involved in the Rwandan slaughter, or indeed with the abuse of children is an intelligent articulation of why the Catholic culture was not strong enough in those places to overcome the evil that was committed.

What is the evil that defeated the Catholic culture in these places and how can we insure a strong Catholic culture in the future that holds sway within the church and defeats an evil that is so opposite to our faith?
I agree. I would like clarification on this as well.
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  #25  
Old Mar 21, '17, 2:44 pm
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by Ginny89 View Post
My goodness. Pope JPII apologized to women? Is the church responsible for that too? C'mon JP, old boy, really? Sigh. Next we'll be asking Pope Francis to apologize for the thousands of years of human spanking of children, and he just might agree to do it too!

Too bad Paul didn't apologize to women, for what he wrote in his letters--if indeed, those were his words. Maybe he didn't realize how they'd be interpreted centuries later.

You revere JP and think of him as "a living saint." And yet...you do not embrace his beautiful "Letter to Women" from June 1995?

http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-pa...995_women.html

Anyhow...I agree with the f-chips...this pope doesn't apologize because someone asks him to do it or because it's politically correct, he does it because he feels it and knows it is a positive, helpful gesture for the Catholic church and for the entire world.

If more leaders did this, we'd move forward with more love and light.
He surely knows this, even if others do not.



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  #26  
Old Mar 21, '17, 7:49 pm
Ginny89 Ginny89 is offline
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by DaddyGirl View Post
Too bad Paul didn't apologize to women, for what he wrote in his letters--if indeed, those were his words. Maybe he didn't realize how they'd be interpreted centuries later.

You revere JP and think of him as "a living saint." And yet...you do not embrace his beautiful "Letter to Women" from June 1995?

http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-pa...995_women.html

Anyhow...I agree with the f-chips...this pope doesn't apologize because someone asks him to do it or because it's politically correct, he does it because he feels it and knows it is a positive, helpful gesture for the Catholic church and for the entire world.

If more leaders did this, we'd move forward with more love and light.
He surely knows this, even if others do not.



.
I really thought it was obvious I was making a joke, but alright.

St. Paul has absolutely nothing to apologize to me or any other woman for. Maybe the Prophet Muhammad does.
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  #27  
Old Mar 21, '17, 9:24 pm
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by Ginny89 View Post
I really thought it was obvious I was making a joke, but alright.
St. Paul has absolutely nothing to apologize to me or any other woman for. Maybe the Prophet Muhammad does.


Yeah, yeah. I got the joke part.
It just didn't seem very funny to me. I was concerned you might be making fun of the pope's charity and compassion.

I would want an apology from Paul myself, except...I rather feel sorry for him.


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  #28  
Old Mar 21, '17, 9:46 pm
Ginny89 Ginny89 is offline
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by DaddyGirl View Post
Yeah, yeah. I got the joke part.
It just didn't seem very funny to me. I was concerned you might be making fun of the pope's charity and compassion.
Lol. Those people who have destroyed comedy on campuses came to mind while I read your post. That post I made the joke at was actually intended in a very friendly way. Your response was not that it was not funny, you proceded to debate its merits as if it was meant as an argument or statements of facts. Maybe someone will respond with "NO! Chicken DO NOT cross roads for any predetermined reason!" next time.

And the Prophet Muhammad? Would you like an apology from him too? Or feel sorry for him? Or is your pity and sense of injury reserved for Christian Holy figures only?

I may be fuzzy on the rules but I doubt you are allowed to disparage Christian Saints and Apostles. Though it IS funny that YOU feel sorry him.
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  #29  
Old Mar 21, '17, 11:59 pm
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by Ginny89 View Post
Lol. Those people who have destroyed comedy on campuses came to mind while I read your post. That post I made the joke at was actually intended in a very friendly way. Your response was not that it was not funny, you proceded to debate its merits as if it was meant as an argument or statements of facts. Maybe someone will respond with "NO! Chicken DO NOT cross roads for any predetermined reason!" next time.

And the Prophet Muhammad? Would you like an apology from him too? Or feel sorry for him? Or is your pity and sense of injury reserved for Christian Holy figures only?

I may be fuzzy on the rules but I doubt you are allowed to disparage Christian Saints and Apostles. Though it IS funny that YOU feel sorry him.

.
Fer sure. I didn't take your joke as unfriendly at all, just...unfunny.
(tho I was vaguely entertained by other parts of your post).

I didn't see anything that inspired debate, or I would have given it a go. Sorry.
After replying to your question about women, I simply felt I should elaborate more on why I admire Pope Francis.
Very, very glad you were not making light of the pope; thanks for clearing that up--especially in keeping with what you say about disparaging.

As for Muhammad, I don't recall ever feeling sorry for him. No. But I've never read any of his letters. Since you asked about him twice, I trust you have?

Paul's letters say a lot about him personally (tho I'm aware he did not author several of them). His emotional words about being in distress, in tears, and filled with anguish in his heart...I can't help it, I feel it for the guy!

It didn't occur to me that someone could ever find that "funny" until you just did, just now.
To each their own, I suppose.

Speaking of rules, I see you are relatively new here so you may not know that we must also be careful about steering a thread too far off track.


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Last edited by DaddyGirl; Mar 22, '17 at 12:15 am.
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  #30  
Old Mar 22, '17, 12:39 am
Ginny89 Ginny89 is offline
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Default Re: Pope begs forgiveness for church role in Rwandan genocide

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Originally Posted by DaddyGirl View Post
.
Fer sure. I didn't take your joke as unfriendly at all, just...unfunny.
(tho I was vaguely entertained by other parts of your post).

I didn't see anything that inspired debate, or I would have given it a go. Sorry.
After replying to your question about women, I simply felt I should elaborate more on why I admire Pope Francis.
Very, very glad you were not making light of the pope; thanks for clearing that up--especially in keeping with what you say about disparaging.

As for Muhammad, I don't recall ever feeling sorry for him. No. But I've never read any of his letters. Since you asked about him twice, I trust you have?

Paul's letters say a lot about him personally (tho I'm aware he did not author several of them). His emotional words about being in distress, in tears, and filled with anguish in his heart...I can't help it, I feel it for the guy!

It didn't occur to me that someone could ever find that "funny" until you just did, here and now.
To each their own, I suppose.

Speaking of rules, I see you are relatively new here so you may not know that we must also be careful about steering a thread too far off track.
O did ya think I made disparaging remarks about our dear old JP II? Totus tous? Never. So sorry you could confuse yourself that way. Pretty sure my boy laughed at my comment from his mansion in heaven: he is that kinda guy, and him and me are tight that way.

Yes, I totally think it hilarious that YOU feel sorry for an apostle. By the way, I have no doubt you found my comments unfunny, that's perfectly alright and CLEAR: the tone of your immediate reply made that quite obvious, I mean ya dove right in with counter-points didntcha?

Quote:
You revere JP and think of him as "a living saint." And yet...you do not embrace his beautiful "Letter to Women" from June 1995?

http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-pa...995_women.html

Anyhow...I agree with the f-chips...this pope doesn't apologize because someone asks him to do it or because it's politically correct, he does it because he feels it and knows it is a positive, helpful gesture for the Catholic church and for the entire world.
Riiiight! I totally agree you weren't arguing.

O Yes, Ma'am, I have read plenty of the Quran and the Hadith: I am honestly shocked that a female journalist in this day and age that's THIS concerned about what ancient texts say about women as you obviously are--so much as to want an apology from an apostle-- is THIS unaware of Islamic texts on women. I mean I know it's not bigotry against one religion, say, Christianity, Catholicism, noooo...not for someone like you, so I do wonder what the reason for such a major blindspot might be. Please save some pity for other religions too: Dont let Christianity hoard all ya love.

FYI: You took the thread off topic with your knee-jerk reaction to a joke but good on ya for attempting to stick to the relevant issues in your posts since.

G
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