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  #46  
Old Apr 14, '05, 6:04 pm
Benedictus Benedictus is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bones_IV
I also would add that it's a sin to judge a priest. We have no right to judge a priest, even when he's in error. Leave Cardinal Law alone. I forgive him, let's get over the past and move on.
Nobody here is "judging" him. Nobody has said that he's going to hell or that he's a bad person. What we're saying is that he can no longer serve in a public role in the Church.

I don't think many people here are refusing to forgive him. It's just that some people have a very mistaken notion of what forgiveness is. Forgiveness is not simply pretending that nothing ever happened. Human mistakes have lasting effects. When we do wrong, we have to accept that we made our own bed and that we have to sleep in it.

If I were to get arrested for DUI, I'd lose my license. It doesn't matter if I'm sorry, or if the judge forgives me; I still need to lose my driver's license. It would be manifestly unjust if I were to escape punishment.

Anyone who disagrees needs to explain why he hasn't hired a child raper as a baby sitter.
  #47  
Old Apr 14, '05, 6:07 pm
Toni Toni is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Funny I just had a conversation about this subject and my response was simply that if he was as bad as everyone accuses him of being would the Holy Father have went out of his way to protect him and hand him the Basilica of Mary Major?

So much heresay and so many secrets to point a finger of guilt when the Holy Father did not. No it won't be me.

My father was very upset to see Cardinal Law even at the funeral but God has mercy on all of us sinners. And I am most thankful that he has always had mercy on me.
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  #48  
Old Apr 14, '05, 6:12 pm
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benedictus
Nobody here is "judging" him. Nobody has said that he's going to hell or that he's a bad person. What we're saying is that he can no longer serve in a public role in the Church..
On what authority? The court of public opinion? Isn't it sufficient that the Holy Father made this appointment? Don't you think that it is disprespectful to second guess the Holy Father?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benedictus
I don't think many people here are refusing to forgive him. It's just that some people have a very mistaken notion of what forgiveness is. Forgiveness is not simply pretending that nothing ever happened. Human mistakes have lasting effects. When we do wrong, we have to accept that we made our own bed and that we have to sleep in it..
Well it's not even up to us to forgive the man. Further no one has suggested that we act like this horrendous chapter didn't happen. No one is refusing to acknowledge that this is a terribly dark and sad part of Church history.

Our priest wrote an editorial recently talking about the sex abuse scandal. He made the analogy of being in a car with someone who's irresponsible and gets into a wreck, injuring everyone. Although it's not our fault, we still suffer. We can't unring the bell. It' happened and we try to heal. It looks like some would rather continue to concentrate on a state of perpetual anger and victimhood rather than focusing on making sure this never happens again. The past is the past. Can we work on the future where we might have some impact?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Benedictus
If I were to get arrested for DUI, I'd lose my license. It doesn't matter if I'm sorry, or if the judge forgives me; I still need to lose my driver's license. It would be manifestly unjust if I were to escape punishment..
OK how come no one acknowledges the punishment that Cardinal Law received? He did not escape. Last time I looked he'd been removed from Boston archdiocese in total disgrace. He was a man of ambitions and ability. He probably had a future at the Vatican. It's over. He's going to be toiling in relative obscurity for the rest of his life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Benedictus
Anyone who disagrees needs to explain why he hasn't hired a child raper as a baby sitter.
Not a particularly compelling argument. Cardinal Law wasn't a child raper and if you know anything about the priest scandal the majority of young men were not children in the sense they were the object of a pedophile. I am not in any way diminishing their anguish and pain but to liken Cardinal Law to a child rapist is way beyond a reasonable comparison. You're gonna have to connect the dots

Lisa N
  #49  
Old Apr 14, '05, 6:12 pm
JKirkLVNV JKirkLVNV is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benedictus
Nobody here is "judging" him. Nobody has said that he's going to hell or that he's a bad person. What we're saying is that he can no longer serve in a public role in the Church.
I don't wish to split hairs, esp. since we're about on the same page and I'm also very tired, BUT....I'm not saying "that he CAN no longer serve in a public role in the Church." I'm saying "that he SHOULD no longer serve in a public role in the Church." I haven't the authority to say the former. He can do anything the Vicar of Christ tells him to do. I just think that he should voluntarily opt out. I take it as a sign of our beloved old Holy Father's great-heartedness, but I still think Cardinal Law should have begged off and asked to be excused.
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  #50  
Old Apr 14, '05, 6:22 pm
JKirkLVNV JKirkLVNV is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa N
He's going to be toiling in relative obscurity for the rest of his life.
Lisa N
Lisa: He's the Archpriest of Saint Mary Major! That's a huge deal!
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  #51  
Old Apr 14, '05, 6:32 pm
catholic2 catholic2 is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

You would think that if one was involved in any measure of the sexual abuse scandal in the Church, he would go into seclusion and go into fearful and trembling prayer and beg God's forgiveness and pity on his poor soul! Would he not try to cover himself in the bowels of the earth from the wrath of the Lamb? Did not Jesus threaten those people who would hurt his little ones with a punishment much worse than having a millstone around his neck and drowned in the middle of the sea? Will there be temporal punishment on earth sufficient to assuage God's wrath?
  #52  
Old Apr 14, '05, 6:34 pm
msproule msproule is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

I have read all of the posts here and I share at least some sentiment with every one of them. What occurred in Boston and elsewhere was despicable and horrific and it makes me ill.

However, true sacramental forgiveness is not in our hands. He has obviously repented and is forgiven. Yet undoubtedly he will forever be subjected to protests, suspicion, threats, and worse. It would be a favor to him to be exiled to some secluded corner of the globe. His life would be much easier.

But I think he was appointed to a position of great prominence for a reason. This is his temporal punishment, his penance. As archpriest of Saint Mary Major, he has taken an "ornamental" appointment and made it onerous.
  #53  
Old Apr 14, '05, 7:36 pm
JKirkLVNV JKirkLVNV is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

This is a link to pics of Santa Maria Maggiore, Cardinal Law's church.

http://roma.katolsk.no/mariamaggiore.htm
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In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas.
  #54  
Old Apr 14, '05, 7:58 pm
Writer Writer is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV
This is a link to pics of Santa Maria Maggiore, Cardinal Law's church.

http://roma.katolsk.no/mariamaggiore.htm

Wow...I wish my family had the opportunity to visit a beautiful church like this once in a while! (Not that we don't love where we are attending, too.) I agree that this seems too good for a person who "enabled" crimes against the young and whose actions caused such a injurious ramifications throughout the entire body of Christ. I was just looking for the verse referred to earlier concerning one who would hurt the children would be better to be drowned with a millstone around his neck. I am afraid when it comes to crimes against children, I lose patience with our slow legal system and the Church's (sometimes) confused or slow response.

On the other hand, there doesn't seem much within our power to address things like this other than keep praying for church leadership to have great wisdom in handling these kinds of divisive issues and being on-guard for future problems. I would just remind folks that this isn't an issue of forgiveness. I don't wish him any ill. In fact, I hope and pray that he has indeed found forgiveness. I am suspicious, however, that something about his behavior today doesn't seem to match someone who is deeply-embarassed or ashamed. If he were truly ashamed, wouldn't he have withdrawn from public view? If he is not ashamed, which I cannot judge, this could be an indicator that the Church itself still does not take the issue as seriously as perhaps it should. I think this specter is what really bothers a lot of us... Does our church understand the scope of the evil which its ministers unleashed on its own innocents? As a Catholic, I hope and pray that these issues fade away and disappear soon, because I will defend the church on every other point, but this is a hard one sometimes...
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  #55  
Old Apr 14, '05, 8:22 pm
catholic2 catholic2 is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Thanks Writer for your kind comment. Your comment was even more valuable after I checked your bio.

The scriptures on the millstone thing can be found in Mat 18:6, Mark 9:42 and Luke 17:2. Here's a quote from Mat in the DR version.
Quote:
2 And Jesus calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them, 3 And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And he that shall receive one such little child in my name, receiveth me.
6 But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must needs be that scandals come: but nevertheless woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh.
Should we be "nicer" than Jesus Himself?
  #56  
Old Apr 14, '05, 8:35 pm
Darrel Darrel is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

I'm sure there is more to this man then his errors. If they chose not to make an example of him that is the Church leadership’s option. He’s probably a great asset to the Church and might be more motivated then ever with what has happened. I'm sure there is more going on then we all know here. Let people point there little fingers, I for one have faith in the leadership.

-D
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  #57  
Old Apr 14, '05, 8:54 pm
catholic2 catholic2 is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrel
I'm sure there is more to this man then his errors. If they chose not to make an example of him that is the Church leadership’s option. He’s probably a great asset to the Church and might be more motivated then ever with what has happened. I'm sure there is more going on then we all know here. Let people point there little fingers, I for one have faith in the leadership.

-D
If we accept the fact of the sexual abuse scandal in our Church and it's horror, it is the result in large measure to the failure of our leadership. Where else can the blame be put? If you have information otherwise I would like to see it.
  #58  
Old Apr 14, '05, 9:31 pm
Vox Borealis Vox Borealis is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

This thread has led to two level of discussion. On one level is the initial question--is Law a sinner or saint. Well, like all humans (inlcuding the saints) he is of course a sinner. Is he a saint--well, probably not, like most all of us.

But on the second level, the initial question really gets at Law's role in the sex-abuse scandal and his recent celebration of a novendiales mass at St. Peter's. I am not going to address this highly contentious topic in its entirety, but I will focus on the celebration of the novendiales mass (since this action has stirred up the hornet's nest). Some think that Law deserved a very serious puichment, such as excommunication or the removal from the clerical state. From this position, anything short of this is a slap in the face of the victims of abuse and evidence that the Vatican "doesn't get it."

Others hold that Law should not have been punished with "defrocking" or excommunication, though they may debate the degree to which he was responsible, whether he has or should be forgiven, and what degree and sort of penalty he should receive. But this very interesting and difficult discussion bears little on the the novemdiales mass. All cardinals have a titular church in Rome, even if they reside and excercise jurisdiction in another location. Even when Law resigned from his position as archbishop of Boston, he still possessed the position of cardinal and still had titular authority in Rome.

I have looked through the Code of Canon Law and did not see any provision for "de-cardinaling" a cardinal, short of excommunication or defrocking. So, once the Pope decided not to invoke these extreme penalties, there was little choice but to place Law in a titular church. Now, it is possible that the Pope could have transferred Law to a less prestigious church than Santa Maria Maggiore, but we must look at this in context: 1] being the archpriest of Sta Maria Maggiore is a demotion from archbishop, and 2] no one really paid much attention to Law until this mass. In other words, the demotion was a satisfactory solution that got Law out of the picture until he celebrated the novendiales mass.

Unfortunately, there was little choice but to allow Law say this mass, since it was basically his turn (or his office's turn) in the rotation (at least this is how it was described on EWTN). The only person who could keep Law from celebrating the mass is Law himslef--and I would agree that it impolitic of him not to turn down his spot in the rotation, but that is Law's fault, and not a "problem with the Vatican." But one may ask, didn't the Vatican (or, really, the Pope) know that this problem could arise? Possibly, but it seems unlikely that anyone was thinking about this one way or another a few years ago? But is that a reasonable objection--Law is almost 75 y.o., and who would have figured that events would have played out exactly such that 1] Law did not die, 2] Law did not retire, 3] the Pope died when he did, 4] Law as archpriest was scheduled to celebrate a novendiales mass?

So, what am I saying in this long, rambling post? I guess that the whole debate about whether or not Law should be forgiven of if he should have been "allowed" to say this important mass is basically moot. Once he was not excommunicated or defrocked years ago--and some in this forum think he should have been--the whole sequence was put in motion that led inevitably and almost uncontrollably (accept by Law himself) to him celebrating the mass. And the honor of celebrating the novendiales mass is really the issue. Frankly, had Cardinal Law died last year, no one really would have cared that he held the honorable post of archpriest of Sta Maria Maggiore.
  #59  
Old Apr 15, '05, 1:00 am
Nan S's Avatar
Nan S Nan S is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

So, basically, he got kicked upstairs into a job where he couldn't exercise the kind of authority he abused, and the Vatican officials could keep a close eye on him.

That, plus they put him in a position where he couldn't speak the language (did you get to see some of his halting-Italian homily?).
  #60  
Old Apr 15, '05, 5:14 am
La Chiara La Chiara is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV
Lisa: He's the Archpriest of Saint Mary Major! That's a huge deal!
Wrong. Archpriest of a basilica is absolutely not a huge deal for a Cardinal. Puh-leeze. It is a beautiful historic basilica in a city of at least 4 basilicas of the same significance.
 

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