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  #151  
Old Jan 13, '13, 5:42 pm
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Default Re: SSPX Update - Redux

UGH! I am so tired of this SSPX-outside-the-Church stuff. They need to just admit their faults, circle the wagons and come back. Besides, I want to be able to live to see a licit episcopal consecration in the EF of (one of) their future bishop(s). From the snippets of the ceremonies I see online, they are extremely interesting.
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  #152  
Old Jan 13, '13, 5:58 pm
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Default Re: Bishop Williamson May Consecrate a Bishop YIKES

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Originally Posted by YoungTradCath View Post
And this meeting is supposed to be in the Diocese of Arlington (Vienna, VA)! Hopefully they don't think to set up shop around here when/if they start their super neo-trad group.
  #153  
Old Jan 13, '13, 6:28 pm
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Default Re: Bishop Williamson May Consecrate a Bishop YIKES

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And this meeting is supposed to be in the Diocese of Arlington (Vienna, VA)! Hopefully they don't think to set up shop around here when/if they start their super neo-trad group.
I'm sorry, but I lol'd a bit at the term neo-trad. It's so non-sensical but at the same time gets to the heart of the situation.
  #154  
Old Jan 13, '13, 6:40 pm
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Default Re: SSPX Update - Redux

They boasted a whopping 10 (ten) priests on the retreat. And crowed that upwards of 20 could have been there.....
If you ask me a a group that thinks the SSPX is too liberal will have a short life no matter how many Bishops they consecrate. We wont be talking about the "resistance" in 500 years...
I think taking the radicals out of the SSPX will only clear the way for the good Bishops and priests to come back in. Think about it. Fellay is witnessing what will happen to this splinter group. What in the world is stopping the other 480 priests from coming into full communion. I honestly think getting rid of the ultra hard liners in the group will facilitate Fellay's SSPX to come back into the fold. Honestly I think this will happen relatively quickly.
During last years debacle people were opining that Fellay was trying to avoid a split. Well if this is true it is too late to avoid. So Fellay can go ahead and sign the next thing that comes to his desk. Methinks this could also be why Fellay has not officially responded and the Vatican is giving him "extra" time.
  #155  
Old Jan 13, '13, 6:53 pm
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Default Re: SSPX Update - Redux

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Originally Posted by YoungTradCath View Post
First of all, I object to their meeting in Vienna, Va. I'm from Manassas, VA, not too far from Vienna. The last thing that Catholics there need is this complication. The Arlington Diocese is still one of the havens of Catholicism in this country. It's people are very good and very orthodox Catholics. The presence of this group would confuse them very much.

The citation that said that Bishop Williamson may ordain Fr. Pfeiffer as bishop explains something that I had not understood. A few weeks ago, Archbishop Mueller publicly said, "Bishop Williamson is no longer Catholic."

I thought those were harsh words and waited for a clarification from the Vatican; but it never came. Which told me that the Holy Father and the other dicastries must agree with this assessment. Then I went back to the interview with the Holy Father, Light of the World, and read where the Holy Father said, "Bishop Williamson has never lived in the larger Church. In a sense, he has never been fully Catholic." I thought that Archbishop Mueller could be paraphrasing the Holy Father.

Given this information, maybe there is more to this, which the Holy See knows about and the rest of the world is just finding out in pieces here and there. We'll just have pray, wait and see.

Having said all this, I always like to read the comments that people write on these pages. I found the tone of hostility and the words of hatred toward the Holy Father, Archbishop Mueller and the Vatican to be very sad. No matter how many mistakes the Vatican may make, which have been many over 2,000 years, a holy Catholic does not express himself the way that these folks express themselves.

I have heard the old argument that one has to be patient and understand that they are frustrated. I'm sorry, but there were other people in our Catholic history who were frustrated as well during times of challenge: the Fathers of the Church, St. Francis, St. Dominic, St. Bernard, St. Ignatius of Loyola, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Catherine of Siena, Bl. Mother Teresa, Bl. John Paul II, Bl. John XXIII, St. Pius X, and the list can go on. All of these holy men and women dealt with challenges inside and outside the Church. They never spoke rudely or without restraint against anyone.

I believe that we have a generation of codependent people. This morning, I was standing outside after mass as I do every Sunday. One of our Secular Franciscans and his children were coming out of the church. I greeted them. The oldest, a 16 year old, just kept walking. I called out after her, "GOOD MORNING!" She did not acknowledge my greeting. Her father quickly chimed in, "She's tired."

I just smiled and nodded. But I'm not buying it. Tired, in a bad mood, unhappy with something, frustrated with something else, gout or anything short of labor pains, does not justify rudeness. I'll give women in labor a pass.

These folks who posted that Archbishop Mueller is a heretic and that the Vatican is in schism are no in labor. I don't give them a pass. The hierarchy has the right to be treated and spoken about respectfully. Christ has earned that right for the Church.
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  #156  
Old Jan 13, '13, 6:54 pm
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Default Re: SSPX Update - Redux

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Originally Posted by YoungTradCath View Post
UGH! I am so tired of this SSPX-outside-the-Church stuff. They need to just admit their faults, circle the wagons and come back. Besides, I want to be able to live to see a licit episcopal consecration in the EF of (one of) their future bishop(s). From the snippets of the ceremonies I see online, they are extremely interesting.
I agree with you, but while I disagree with the SSPX's position I can see their argument, though it's not entirely valid.

They want to preserve the traditions of the Church, and their efforts are not wasted, however they'd be 110% more effective if they were within the literal arms of the Church, fully and undisputed.

I think Bp Fellay would be a good shepherd, actually, and I wouldn't doubt his eligibility to be a Cardinal, of course that being God's will, and not ours.
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  #157  
Old Jan 13, '13, 7:07 pm
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Default Re: SSPX Update - Redux

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They boasted a whopping 10 (ten) priests on the retreat. And crowed that upwards of 20 could have been there.....
If you ask me a a group that thinks the SSPX is too liberal will have a short life no matter how many Bishops they consecrate. We wont be talking about the "resistance" in 500 years...
I think taking the radicals out of the SSPX will only clear the way for the good Bishops and priests to come back in. Think about it. Fellay is witnessing what will happen to this splinter group. What in the world is stopping the other 480 priests from coming into full communion. I honestly think getting rid of the ultra hard liners in the group will facilitate Fellay's SSPX to come back into the fold. Honestly I think this will happen relatively quickly.
During last years debacle people were opining that Fellay was trying to avoid a split. Well if this is true it is too late to avoid. So Fellay can go ahead and sign the next thing that comes to his desk. Methinks this could also be why Fellay has not officially responded and the Vatican is giving him "extra" time.
I believe that a split was always in the cards. Other groups that have come back have lost members. The SSPX is not going to be the exception. I don't think that Bishop Fellay expected to have 100% support.

As for coming back soon, I tend to agree with you. As I said once before, the SSPX bishops are not getting younger. If they ordain successors, it's going to be a perilous move.
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  #158  
Old Jan 13, '13, 7:09 pm
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Default Re: SSPX Update - Redux

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Originally Posted by LoyalViews View Post
I agree with you, but while I disagree with the SSPX's position I can see their argument, though it's not entirely valid.

They want to preserve the traditions of the Church, and their efforts are not wasted, however they'd be 110% more effective if they were within the literal arms of the Church, fully and undisputed.

I think Bp Fellay would be a good shepherd, actually, and I wouldn't doubt his eligibility to be a Cardinal, of course that being God's will, and not ours.
Do you really think that Bishop Fellay would accept separation from the Society to take on an administrative post in some other place.?
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  #159  
Old Jan 13, '13, 7:46 pm
ringil ringil is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Williamson May Consecrate a Bishop YIKES

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Originally Posted by Justin Swanton View Post
Actually it's Bishop Williamson that mooted the possibility of consecrating bishops.
OK gotcha, sorry.
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  #160  
Old Jan 13, '13, 8:48 pm
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Default Re: SSPX Update - Redux

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They did such a good job, that when I was widowed, I decided to become a Franciscan. Now that's what I call working overtime.

No, in all seriousness, what attracted me was the passion and sweetness in the friars whenever a Franciscan holy day came around and when they spoke about the Seraphic Father. They were so enthusiastic. No matter what you said, they always had a sage piece of advice from St. Francis or one of the early Franciscans. Then there is the great solemnity of St. Francis, which is a long as the Easter Triduum and follows the same patter of liturgical celebrations, culminating with the solemn mass celebrating Francis' entrance into glory.

I was only 10 at the time. I was in their school because in southern schools they practiced segregation and we were not welcome. The only other choices were to move to another town or attend a Catholic school that welcomed Jews and did not try to convert us. When we found out that the Franciscans ran the local parish and school, my parents were thrilled. The Franciscans have a very good reputation among Israelis. They have been in Palestine since 1219. My brothers and I were the only boys in Catholic school uniforms who wore a kippah. We had to take religion class, because it's an academic subject. We didn't have to participate in any religious services unless we wanted to. My parents insisted that we attend and sit politely or stand when the congregation stood. We were not allowed to kneel. Jews don't kneel.

The kindness of the friars and their love for their father triggered my curiosity about this man at the age of 10. I started to read as much as I could find on him. After my Bar Mitzvah it became clear to me that the next logical step, once I had accepted my place as a Jewish man, was to follow the Covenant. I found the Covenant being lived by the friars. This pushed me to want to learn more about Francis of Assisi. I wanted to know about this man that had such a tight hold on these men 750 years later.

You can't study Francis of Assisi and not see Jesus. If you don't see Jesus, it's the wrong Francis. What impressed me most were his obedience, his detachment, his love for his brothers and his charm. He was everything but a stuffy Catholic as were many whom I had met. He was actually very funny and very naive at times, which made him adorable.

I had already been through years of religious education. See Catholicism lived by the friars and having it explained by Francis' simple gestures and passion for the scriptures sealed the deal for me. By 16 I knew that in order to be a good Jew, I had to become like Francis. The rest is history. That was 46 years ago, but I remember it as if it were yesterday.

From my perspective, the Good Friday prayer says exactly what it needs to say, because it is comprehensible to any Jew without being offensive. This is important when we raise public prayers for others. The prayer has to reflect our faith, be comprehensible to the person for whom we pray and avoid antagonizing that person. Otherwise, you're asking God for the impossible. You're asking God to convert someone who believes that you hate him.
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  #161  
Old Jan 13, '13, 8:54 pm
Moore11 Moore11 is offline
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Default Re: SSPX Update - Redux

From the PDF that cited.

Quote:
Let us make clear that our main enemy is first of all the conciliar church. Our fist attacks go to
those “officials” who are destroying the Catholic Church. Their destructive work is making day
after day tremendous ravages and, as a consequence, many souls are irreparably lost.
But it is not enough to claim that one is opposed to the Modernist Rome, as the leaders of the
neo-SSPX claim, and at the same time favor an agreement with the same Rome! Therefore, all
those who are seeking an agreement with the enemies of the Church, should be exposed and
attacked as well. And this
is the reason why we are
resisting the superiors of
the neo-SSPX. We have to
denounce them because
they are compromising
with the conciliar church
and betraying the mission
Archp. Lefebvre entrusted
to the Society of St Pius X.
To me this is quite laughable and void of logic. But if you look at the 2 statements by the 2 main factions here you have an interesting disagreement. Fellay recently felt the need to talk of what the "enemies" are both real and imagined. (real: masons, progressivism and imagined: Jewish people.) While, Williamson (I think is responsible for the PDF) says that the enemy is the Conciliar Church, which is the Catholic Church. In fact he goes so far as to call this the first and foremost enemy.
Attacking the Church as your enemy and wont get you far. Especially when you have such a small pool of people to draw from. Now Fellay used some language which we have all been commenting about but Fellay's group in the US released a statement "clarifying" the statements a little. (not enough) But what this shows is someone who is willing to take direction and correction. And Williamson and his ilk are going so far as to call the Church that the Pope heads it's number one enemy.
Honestly It is becoming crystal clear that we might be on the brink of most of the SSPX coming home and Williamson's group being in schism. A good new bad news sort of situation.
  #162  
Old Jan 13, '13, 9:15 pm
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Default Re: SSPX Update - Redux

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Do you really think that Bishop Fellay would accept separation from the Society to take on an administrative post in some other place.?
No, I don't, though the idea is interesting
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Old Jan 13, '13, 9:39 pm
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Default Re: SSPX Update - Redux

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From the PDF that cited.



To me this is quite laughable and void of logic. But if you look at the 2 statements by the 2 main factions here you have an interesting disagreement. Fellay recently felt the need to talk of what the "enemies" are both real and imagined. (real: masons, progressivism and imagined: Jewish people.) While, Williamson (I think is responsible for the PDF) says that the enemy is the Conciliar Church, which is the Catholic Church. In fact he goes so far as to call this the first and foremost enemy.
Attacking the Church as your enemy and wont get you far. Especially when you have such a small pool of people to draw from. Now Fellay used some language which we have all been commenting about but Fellay's group in the US released a statement "clarifying" the statements a little. (not enough) But what this shows is someone who is willing to take direction and correction. And Williamson and his ilk are going so far as to call the Church that the Pope heads it's number one enemy.
Honestly It is becoming crystal clear that we might be on the brink of most of the SSPX coming home and Williamson's group being in schism. A good new bad news sort of situation.
Whenever someone uses the word "attack" my red flags go up. The posture of the saints has always be defensive, not offensive. They have defended the faith. They have never attacked those outside of the faith.

I always have to go back to my Franciscan roots. St. Francis loved the Muslims. He even brought home gifts from his trip to the Middle East, which we still have. He introduced a few Muslim customs into Franciscan life, which we still practice. Yet, he defended the Christians in the Holy Land and negotiated a treaty in order to go out there and minister to them.

St. John Da Matha loved the Muslims. He particular loved their sense of humor and their strong fidelity to their beliefs, right or wrong. He acknowledged the good that he saw in them. He taught his friars to respect what was good about the Muslims and to appeal to it in order to liberate captives from the Muslim's prisons. And so the Friars of the Most Holy Trinity went off with the Crusaders, but not on the offensive. The first thing they did when they arrived at a place that was occupied by the Muslims was to look for the leader and pay their respects. They proceeded from there to negotiate. They were very good at what they did. To this day, they are still very good at what they do in the Middle East and other countries where Christians are under attack. I wish we had more Trinitarian Friars.

The word attack does not sit well with me. I have seen very little good come from people with that mindset. All the good that I have seen has come from people who have defended the faith and defended the faithful WITHOUT engaging in an attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoyalViews View Post
No, I don't, though the idea is interesting
I can't imagine him taking on a diocese where he would be forced to accept the OF, accept sisters without habits, deal with social as well a spiritual issues and even accept the possibility of having other religious orders in his diocese and not having any authority or voice over them and over what they do or how they do it. As long as they don't violate Canon Law, the bishop must maintain his hands off.

Can Bishop Fellay live in such a setting and can he administer without getting an ulcer? I can't imagine it. I can imagine him taking over my diocese and coming to my community to try to set our brothers right and one of the brothers saying something like, "Excuse me Your Excellency while I ask Father Superior if it's OK to do what you're asking me to do or to stop doing what you're asking me to stop." Can you imagine that?
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  #164  
Old Jan 13, '13, 10:13 pm
Aramis Aramis is offline
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Default Re: SSPX Update - Redux

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Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
Can Bishop Fellay live in such a setting and can he administer without getting an ulcer? I can't imagine it. I can imagine him taking over my diocese and coming to my community to try to set our brothers right and one of the brothers saying something like, "Excuse me Your Excellency while I ask Father Superior if it's OK to do what you're asking me to do or to stop doing what you're asking me to stop." Can you imagine that?
Having known a Dominican who did pretty much that same thing... at a Cathedral Parish... and the Bishop's response was "Ok, let me know." (Mind you, it was over shoes... the Superior worked out a compromise that worked for both. No sandals, but decorated canvas sneakers to meet his medical requirements were agreed upon.)

Still, I can't envision Bp. Fellay saying "Ok, let me know."

I can certainly envision a friar - ANY friar - doing so. Politely. Some might even ask if their permission for public masses was withdrawn until it was adjudicated, and who is to cover their assigned public masses.

But I see a consistent pattern of "SSPX Way or the Highway" - going right back to 1973. When they skipped the Diocesan Right approval stage and sought to skip from Pia Unio to Papal Right.
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  #165  
Old Jan 13, '13, 10:17 pm
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Default Re: SSPX Update - Redux

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Finally, those who feel that the Good Friday prayer for the Jews is weak are missing the point of the prayer.
You are missing the point of the objection to the Good Friday prayer. What are Catholics really praying for when they pray for Jews to “more closely follow the covenant”?

Quote:
The point is that the Jews will reach the fulfillment of the Covenant. If they do so, they will find Christ, because Christ is the fulfillment of the Covenants that God made with Israel....The Covenant prepared Israel for Christ.
So “the covenant” mentioned in the Good Friday prayer for the Jews is what Christians call the Old Covenant, correct? That means that for over 40 years now Catholics have been praying for Jews to “more closely follow” the Old Covenant, correct?

And how do the Jews do that? How do the Jews more closely follow the Old Covenant? By rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem and resuming animal sacrifices.

This is very serious. On Good Friday, the most solemn day of the year in the Catholic Church, the day when Catholics commemorate the Perfect Sacrifice – the Sacrifice to end all sacrifices – one could reasonably argue that Catholics are inadvertently praying for Jews, who reject the Perfect Sacrifice, to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem and resume animal sacrifices.

I do not make these remarks to be mean-spirited. I am a cradle Catholic who still has warm feelings for the Catholic Church and who still defends her when she is attacked by non-Catholics.

But I have been astonished by the direction that the Church has taken since Vatican 2. When I finally lost my faith in the Catholic Church, I lost my faith, period.
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